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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-15-2006, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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Question New Headers

I am wanting to put a set of headers on my 95 4.6 what kind of headers should i use and how much horsepower will i expect to get?
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-15-2006, 06:45 PM
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The only headers worth a crap for our cars are the Kooks. The horsepower gains will be minimal. On a mostly stock car the stock manifolds flow fine. Imo a huge waste of money and the are a pain to install, from what I hear you have to lift the motor up to install.

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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-15-2006, 07:33 PM
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Yeah the kooks are the only bolt on half way decent headers for our cars. The problem is that they aren't full length headers, just 3/4 length, so they really won't help your low end torque the way a good set of longtubes would. But nobody makes longtubes for our cars, so either do the steering shaft mod and make a set of mustang ones fit, or spend your money elsewhere for now.

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-15-2006, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
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thanks guys
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-15-2006, 09:15 PM
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maybe like 3 hp at the wheels?? Headers for our cars are a waste of money and time! the stock Xhaust manifolds work just fine! spending hundreds of dollars for maybe 5rwhp is a waste. Most of the time people buy headers for the look of shiny tubes running of the block but in our cars with the modular motors they are hidden so theres no point there either.

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-16-2006, 03:55 PM
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alot of times people put them in to help with the tone of their exhaust along with the minor hp increase.

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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-16-2006, 08:23 PM
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i felt a nice improvement with the kooks but mine is nowhere near stock. i think headers are only worth it if you have increased flow at the heads

A nut is a nut and a bolt is a bolt. Wrench 'em off!

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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-24-2007, 10:40 AM
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would they be worth it if i got a blower in the car?

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-24-2007, 10:50 AM
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can someone post a actual picture of the kooks headers? I want to see what they look like. . .
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-24-2007, 10:52 AM
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http://forums.tccoa.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=37

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-24-2007, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by twin turbo 281 View Post
maybe like 3 hp at the wheels?? Headers for our cars are a waste of money and time! the stock Xhaust manifolds work just fine! spending hundreds of dollars for maybe 5rwhp is a waste. Most of the time people buy headers for the look of shiny tubes running of the block but in our cars with the modular motors they are hidden so theres no point there either.
I disagree with that totally,and have proof to back it up. Pete's Big-Bore car has the same heads I do,comparable exhaust,and aftermarket cams and stock iron manifolds. His car made less than 20 rwhp more than I did,and my engine is stock bore and stroke with kooks headers,and the only other big difference in the intake-I've got a bullitt intake and Pete has a plastic PI intake.
On a stock engine,there's a minimal gain,but as the mods pile on,or for a power adder car-they're a large gain.
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-24-2007, 04:16 PM
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Not that I am crazy about their products, but MAC headers can be made to work. The pass side bolts right on, drivers side you can either change a couple of tubes or change the steering shaft routing.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-24-2007, 09:55 PM
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Yep... Johnny pretty much summed it up. Everything between our engines is comperable, including compression and cylinder heads. Johnny's cams are a little more agressive than mine, but nothing that's night and day. The big differences are that his 4.6 has the Bullit manifold and Kooks headers, while my big bore has stock manifolds and a PI intake. So, you could argue about the cams, but considering that I have a big bore, you'll be wasting your time.

Pete

-97 XR-7
-5.0 Big Bore ...
Ran @ Normal Operating Temps, No Race Tune, No Setup Changes from Daily Driven Configurations
9.0 @ 78 (1/8 Mile only in Abilene )
2.06 60' on Street Tires (BFG G-Force Super Sport 245/50/16)
3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
1/8 mile: 8.75 @ 82
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-25-2007, 12:39 PM
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kdanner, do you know it you can make the left side work on anyone else headers besize macs work. thanks for your help
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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-25-2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG PETE View Post
Yep... Johnny pretty much summed it up. Everything between our engines is comperable, including compression and cylinder heads. Johnny's cams are a little more agressive than mine, but nothing that's night and day. The big differences are that his 4.6 has the Bullit manifold and Kooks headers, while my big bore has stock manifolds and a PI intake. So, you could argue about the cams, but considering that I have a big bore, you'll be wasting your time.

Pete
Well I have to agree with you and Johnny. I think it is time I put my $0.02 in. Pete and I have very similar builds in our cars, same displacement, same compression ratio, same heads, same intake and other similarities. The big difference I have the Kooks headers and a more aggressive cam. Pete, correct me if I am wrong, but there is about a 30 RWHP difference in our cars.

People could argue that the cams are making up the difference but I would disagree with that assessment.

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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-25-2007, 05:18 PM
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Pete, correct me if I am wrong, but there is about a 30 RWHP difference in our cars.
That would be correct.
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-27-2007, 10:29 AM
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Concur with Johnny.

Todd, my dyno graph on the Triangle Speed Shop Mustang Dyno shows 243 RWHP compared to your 298. However, my car's baseline pull made around 265 at the time we aborted the run (it was pinging really bad, which is why I brought it in for the tune). Its operation got smoother and you could hear a more even application of power on the dyno with each run, eventhough the HP dropped off by about 7 RWHP each time. After 4 back to back pulls, heat soak cut my power production by almost 25 RWHP. The weather that day at TSS was pretty close to SAE conditions anyhow. Johnny was there during the tune, and he also attributed the 243 RWHP to heat soak and running on a Mustang Dyno, since his car's power fell by a similar margin with each pull too.

So, adding 10% more RWHP to convert back to a Dynojet, I would have around 267 RWHP, even after 4 consecutive pulls. Then, add in what I lost from heat soak, and you're looking at a mid 290ish RWHP for a money shot run, which is what I was hoping to see that day. I bring all this up because the ET / MPH / Race Weight from my best run indicates around, 270-275 RWHP. The operating temps were similar, since I made 3 runs in 10 minutes at the track with the fastest one (best launch) being on the third attempt. I also had a pressure altitude of 1100'. That 270-275 RWHP estimate from the track is damn close to the 267 RWHP estimate from a Dynojet, so I would say my data is valid, putting me within about 30 RWHP short of Todd's big bore.

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-97 XR-7
-5.0 Big Bore ...
Ran @ Normal Operating Temps, No Race Tune, No Setup Changes from Daily Driven Configurations
9.0 @ 78 (1/8 Mile only in Abilene )
2.06 60' on Street Tires (BFG G-Force Super Sport 245/50/16)
3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
1/8 mile: 8.75 @ 82

Last edited by BIG PETE; 02-27-2007 at 10:32 AM. Reason: typo
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-27-2007, 10:35 AM
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What is this "mustang dyno" i keep hearing about.

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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-27-2007, 10:39 AM
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Also, my gut feel is that about 20 of the 30 is from the headers and maybe 10-15 is the more agressive cam, which also matches with Johnny's car.

The headers are definately worth about 20-30 RWHP on a healthy NA engine.

Pete

-97 XR-7
-5.0 Big Bore ...
Ran @ Normal Operating Temps, No Race Tune, No Setup Changes from Daily Driven Configurations
9.0 @ 78 (1/8 Mile only in Abilene )
2.06 60' on Street Tires (BFG G-Force Super Sport 245/50/16)
3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
1/8 mile: 8.75 @ 82
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-27-2007, 11:43 AM
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Mustang Dyno is just a company that builds dynos. Typically, you see these or Dynojets, or a few shops out there even use Superflows. Superflow makes a really nice dyno, but they are close to 70-80 grand. The Mustang Dyno is only about 30 grand, slightly less than the Dynojet, so you can see why you run into those two brands most commonly.

For some reason or another, the Mustang Dynos always tell you that you have less power than you actually do. I'm not sure why, I never looked into the reason, but it could be the algorithm they use, calibration standards, or any various combination of factors. I just accepted that they typically cut out 8-10% of the RWHP that you would have had on a Superflow or Dynojet. Those two are typically withing 10 HP of each other and tend to be the most accurate.

Pete

-97 XR-7
-5.0 Big Bore ...
Ran @ Normal Operating Temps, No Race Tune, No Setup Changes from Daily Driven Configurations
9.0 @ 78 (1/8 Mile only in Abilene )
2.06 60' on Street Tires (BFG G-Force Super Sport 245/50/16)
3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
1/8 mile: 8.75 @ 82
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-27-2007, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BIG PETE View Post
Also, my gut feel is that about 20 of the 30 is from the headers and maybe 10-15 is the more agressive cam, which also matches with Johnny's car.

The headers are definately worth about 20-30 RWHP on a healthy NA engine.

Pete
That is what I was thinking. I must have edited my original post a bit before I posted it. I was going to mention that you would likely see a 20 HP gain with the kooks. The Comp 262's made 8 less peak HP than the Comp 278's in a fairly modified car so that gives an idea of how much you are going to gain with more aggressive cams.

R.I.P. Johnny Langton (1975 - 2011)

1996 Thunderbird 5.0L 2V-4R70W
12.64 @ 107 MPH -> DA 3315 Ft above Sea level
12.49 @ 109 -> DA 2967 Ft above Sea level
2005 Mustang GT 4.6L 3V-TR3650 - SOLD
13.39 @ 102 MPH -> DA 3617 Ft above Sea level
2011 Mustang GT 5.0L 4V-6R80 - Bolt-ons
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-28-2007, 11:07 AM
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Yeah, I went with the Crane HR-218. I got a good deal on them, they would work pretty well N/A, and if I ever decided to throw a Vortech on the engine, they would still work pretty well.

Nothing radical at all, just a good option for any possible path for my engine.

Pete

-97 XR-7
-5.0 Big Bore ...
Ran @ Normal Operating Temps, No Race Tune, No Setup Changes from Daily Driven Configurations
9.0 @ 78 (1/8 Mile only in Abilene )
2.06 60' on Street Tires (BFG G-Force Super Sport 245/50/16)
3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
1/8 mile: 8.75 @ 82
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-02-2007, 04:37 PM
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kdanner, do you know it you can make the left side work on anyone else headers besize macs work. thanks for your help
No I don't. When you want to find out something like that, you do just like I did, buy the parts and try it.

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-02-2007, 05:41 PM
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When the Kooks first come out, they were tested on a 4.6 DOHC mark VIII platform. The car went from stock setup to Kooks headers with full 2.5" exhuast and gained 25rwhp and 15rwtq.
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-02-2007, 09:49 PM
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you could also try bassani midlength's, bassani has always had great quality along with kook's(still the best imo but also highest priced unfortunately)
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-02-2007, 09:50 PM
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you could also try bassani midlength's, bassani has always had great quality along with kook's(still the best imo but also highest priced unfortunately)

the price of a set of bassanis not including modding either the tubing and/or the steering shaft would set your price above and beyond a set of bolt and go Kooks.




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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-02-2007, 10:00 PM
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the price of a set of bassanis not including modding either the tubing and/or the steering shaft would set your price above and beyond a set of bolt and go Kooks.
thats only if you are paying someone else to install right? i was only suggesting he could try it i don't know how they fit on a bird, just commenting on their quality i've seen, i'm trying to learn more about birds/markViii's though because they're are quite a few birds in the local pullapart that i'm thinking about scouting around and selling hard to find parts that might be in them for little to no profit...and they are the closest things to mustangs in the pullapart(some of the stuff might be useful to me too )
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-02-2007, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad1stGen View Post
When the Kooks first come out, they were tested on a 4.6 DOHC mark VIII platform. The car went from stock setup to Kooks headers with full 2.5" exhuast and gained 25rwhp and 15rwtq.
On my '93 Mark VIII, I had a dual 2-1/2 catback exhaust before the headers install. Definitely picked up more than 5-10 HP. But the real meat came with the modded intake which complemented the header flow. Together they are probably 20-25 HP with stock heads/cams. Hopefully I'll have new dyno numbers in a couple weeks. In the future, they will allow even better gains with cams/headwork.

The big plus with the 3/4 length headers is the tranny can come out without disturbing the headers.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-02-2007, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
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thats only if you are paying someone else to install right? i was only suggesting he could try it i don't know how they fit on a bird, just commenting on their quality i've seen, i'm trying to learn more about birds/markViii's though because they're are quite a few birds in the local pullapart that i'm thinking about scouting around and selling hard to find parts that might be in them for little to no profit...and they are the closest things to mustangs in the pullapart(some of the stuff might be useful to me too )
huh? mustang headers will not readily fit a bird for a variety of reasons...

1. EGR is on the opposite side.
2. tubing contacts the steering shaft.

so, for a set of mustang headers to fit a bird, you will have to modify them.

btw, the list for a set of bassanis new - that will need to be modified to work is 545$....yeah thats a great idea.




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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-02-2007, 11:05 PM
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huh? mustang headers will not readily fit a bird for a variety of reasons...

1. EGR is on the opposite side.
2. tubing contacts the steering shaft.

so, for a set of mustang headers to fit a bird, you will have to modify them.

btw, the list for a set of bassanis new - that will need to be modified to work is 545$....yeah thats a great idea.
whats the list price of kooks? i know the kooks for my car are significantly higher than the bassani's(and i can't find a seperate 4.6 header for birds on the kooks site just the ~900 2v mustang headers)
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