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post #1 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Thumbs up 3 valve v10 engine

i had no idea this was out there.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-...ayphotohosting

http://media.ford.com/products/press...398&make_id=92

these things also come with 6-speed manuals.



we are going to see these all over ebay in a year or two. 362HP and 457FTLBS. you could definitely get some reground camshafts to even those numbers out and make that one bad setup. i don't care how much heavier it is. i don't care how cramped the engine bay would be. i don't care if you'd have to get a big ol' cowl hood or custom fab some intake pieces.

someone please put this in your car.
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post #2 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 07:34 PM
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Good idea, but exhaust manifolds are going to be a HUGE problem.

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post #3 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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making some headers should not be tough.

i think this engine is great because it's going to be so dirt cheap. you could be getting over 400 hp out of it easy with gobs of torque, and you'd probably pay a forth of what you would for a supercharged mustang cobra engine.
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post #4 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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big pete. you own the greatest combo cougar. black 96-97 with the 7 spoke wheels and sport package. it's so clean too.

my car is such a beater.
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post #5 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:10 PM
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So... Your plan is to get a V10 engine with a really long stroke, cram it in a car that weighs near 4000lbs, and then try to cram all of the electronics that came with the motor in there so you can control the extra 2 cyllanders?

I think the V8 is fine for me
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post #6 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silenced
So... Your plan is to get a V10 engine with a really long stroke, cram it in a car that weighs near 4000lbs, and then try to cram all of the electronics that came with the motor in there so you can control the extra 2 cyllanders?

I think the V8 is fine for me

Why not de-stroke it and rev the **** out of it.
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post #7 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:25 PM
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So where are you going to get a crankshaft with less stroke than that to Destroke it? Its a V10... Also, even if you could, you would just have a super low-compression engine with really long rods, and a big mechanic bill

If you want to go fast, stick with the 4.6. If you want to tow a bulldozer, get the V10

Last edited by Silenced; 10-31-2006 at 08:30 PM.
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post #8 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silenced
So... Your plan is to get a V10 engine with a really long stroke, cram it in a car that weighs near 4000lbs, and then try to cram all of the electronics that came with the motor in there so you can control the extra 2 cyllanders?
sounds like a sweet plan to me. sign me up
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post #9 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silenced
That leaves you with a REALLY low compression engine with really long rods that you spent lots of money to make.

So I guess all those F1 cars with high revving, small stroke engines make no power then


Granted you wan't be revving this to 19k but you get the point



To address your edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silenced
So where are you going to get a crankshaft with less stroke than that to Destroke it? Its a V10... Also, even if you could, you would just have a super low-compression engine with really long rods, and a big mechanic bill
It's obviously out of your comfort zone. If you want to buy off the shelf parts and tell everyone how fast your car is with bolt-ons, that's your choice. For people who like a bit more of an engineering challenge and like to think out of his box, why **** in his picnic basket because it seems too much work, to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silenced
If you want to go fast, stick with the 4.6. If you want to tow a bulldozer, get the V10
Is that so? A 351 would be faster for less. Do we want to start playing that game?

Last edited by Fusion0507; 10-31-2006 at 08:38 PM.
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post #10 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:44 PM
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Just so you can tell me how much more ridiculous an idea it is, read about the 5.8L Mustang V10 Concept that Ford did for ****s and giggles. If it fit in a Mustang, I don't see why not in a Tbird.


From page to of the Motortrend Article:

Quote:
Ford's SVT/SVE and the Ford Racing shops had nothing to do with it, and this engine is in no way related to the 6.8-liter/310-horsepower SOHC Triton V-10 used in F-250 pickups
.

Ok, no biggie. If I remember the MM&FF article (can't find it atm), all they did was take the 4.6L and slap 2 more cylinders on the end to achieve the V10 for this concept car.


Quote:
Fortunately, when you work at a major automaker, the parts bin is exceptionally large, and important stray pieces are floating around if you know where to scrounge. This V-10's pistons, valves, and connecting rods are all shared with the 32-valve 4.6-liter Modular V-8. The camshafts, of course, are custom, but they use the same grind profile as the V-8.

Still, some things had to be fabricated outside of Ford or on the engineers' own time. For example, the cylinder heads and block are special castings. The oil pan, intake manifold, and 54-degree crank also are one-offs. Fortunately, the accessory belt-drive system is another component borrowed directly from the Modular V-8 family. Since there's no Ford computer software or electronic hardware for a V-10 of this type, this 351 takes its signals from two blinking dash-mounted control units that run each five-hole cylinder bank independently.
So much for all your special 'electronics'. Also, since we know what pistons it used, we know bore diameter, and can calculate stroke.

So:

displacement in liters = [pi*(bore/2)^2] *[stroke] * [number of cylinders] / 61.0237441 cubic inches per liter

On a 4.6L we know:
bore = 3.55118110236 inches (90.2mm)
stroke = 3.54330708661 inches (90mm)

Since we know the V10 had a displacement of 5.8L we get a stroke of ~3.573.





formatting

Last edited by Fusion0507; 11-01-2006 at 03:20 PM.
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post #11 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion0507
If it fit in a Mustang, I don't see why not in a Tbird.
Really? AWESOME! I'll just go pick up an 04 Cobra motor and slap it in there no problem then!...

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post #12 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion0507
It's obviously out of your comfort zone. If you want to buy off the shelf parts and tell everyone how fast your car is with bolt-ons, that's your choice. For people who like a bit more of an engineering challenge and like to think out of his box, why **** in his picnic basket because it seems too much work, to you.
Its not out of my comfort zone, its just a crazy idea from the twilight zone. Yes, it might fit, and Yes, it makes 360hp at the crank. If you want to put all of the work into it, and make power one of the hardest ways possible, then be that way. I'm just saying that it isn't a realistic idea.

I don't consider bolt-ons as a good power maker just as I don't consider you a compitent engineer for the task you proposed. You made a comment about destroking a V10 engine, when there is no possible crankshaft to destroke it with, aswell as having to get custom rods and pistons made (10 of each!) just so you have a NORMAL compression ratio, and so that the stroke ends in the correct place in the cyllander. After this, you still have to worry about letting the engine breathe, and getting some CUSTOM parts such as cams! Have fun with that.

You can't even COMPAIR this to F1 engines. Those things are designed from almost scratch, not mutilated from ford's truck parts.

If you want to play with me, you better do some reading first.
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post #13 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 08:54 PM
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If it fit in a Mustang, I don't see why not in a Tbird.


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post #14 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 09:21 PM
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While we're talkin' here...

How big can a Romeo block be bored to?

Is there a possiblity of big bore in anything other than a Al block?

Why don't these engines turn major revs, other than intake port/valve issues?
(seems the dohc would spin more r's too, somehow...Especially blown...)

Any one have any insight?

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post #15 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 09:30 PM
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MN-12 engine bays aren't as roomy as the mustang ones.

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post #16 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 09:35 PM
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Grog,

http://media.ford.com/products/press...398&make_id=92

Look at the bores and strokes


Ours
3.55" x 3.54"

5.4
3.55 x 4.16 in

V10
3.55 x 4.16 in

Also, the V10 has more moving mass. Thats two more pistons going the entire 4.2 inches. Terminal RPM is determined by the quality of the material, the mass of it, and how far it has to move each stroke.
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post #17 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 09:38 PM
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v10 has been discussed before here.

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post #18 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silenced
I don't consider bolt-ons as a good power maker just as I don't consider you a compitent engineer for the task you proposed. You made a comment about destroking a V10 engine, when there is no possible crankshaft to destroke it with, aswell as having to get custom rods and pistons made (10 of each!) just so you have a NORMAL compression ratio, and so that the stroke ends in the correct place in the cyllander. After this, you still have to worry about letting the engine breathe, and getting some CUSTOM parts such as cams! Have fun with that.

Again, you want to play the off-the-shelf parts bin guy, go ahead. Off the shelf parts are largely irrelevant to me.

As for the engineer crack, I'm in junior year with a mechanical engineering major. I guess the hurdles you and I see are different. But hey, I guess I'm full of ****...




I asked a while back about torsional stiffness numbers for the Tbird body and said to really know where to strengthen the subframe you'd need FEA. Some asshat on here laughed at me and told me he'd just weld some **** up and drive his car and rolled his eyes at me. Everyone can laugh all they want. But just remember why theres no real engineered parts for Tbirds; everyone cries that no one makes parts instead of getting off your asses and doing any real engineering yourselves.

Now I remember why I stopped posting here.

Last edited by Fusion0507; 10-31-2006 at 09:48 PM.
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post #19 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 09:52 PM
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Fusion, what you're failing to ponder is that there are those out there with literally unlimited budgets and unlimited engineering and fabrication capabilities. Whether these people are working with Mustangs or Thunderbirds, they are NOT running V10s. There is a reason for this. If the V10 was Ford's best motor, don't you think it'd be in ANYTHING other than a truck? Nobody is telling you it can't be done, they're telling you that it's not an original idea. It's been explored and found not worthy of the effort. Deal with it.

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post #20 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 09:54 PM
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Lemme guess, you stopped posting because you don't own a Thunderbird or Cougar anymore?

And the whole engineer thing doesn't mean crap. I'm a junior ME at one of the #1 rated engineering schools in the nation. Big deal. In the grand scheme of things, what I've learned in these books and classrooms means exactly nothing without real world experience and common sense. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean that it should be.

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post #21 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 09:57 PM
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Lemme guess, you stopped posting because you don't own a Thunderbird or Cougar anymore?
You guessed wrong. I just don't drive it everyday.

Quote:
And the whole engineer thing doesn't mean crap. I'm a junior ME at one of the #1 rated engineering schools in the nation.
What Rose? BFD.




Hey, do what everyone else does; why not, it's the safest bet.

Whenever something new is proposed people on this board freak out and sh*t all over themselves with panic. I remember when people swore up and down 2 valve PI was the way to go and dowright refused 4v motors

Funny all the MarkVIII motor swap threads I see....
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post #22 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 10:02 PM
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A one-off crank for a truck motor is a bit different than swapping in a factory longblock...

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post #23 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 10:06 PM
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Please enlighten me to how "Off the shelf" parts for a 10 year old car are soo irrelivent? There are TONS of aftermarket parts for the 4.6 thanks to our mustang friends. I'm just saying that it isn't time/cost effective to engineer a whole engine/electronics swap, and try and make power with that when we have a great platform to work off of.

I completely agree that some fabrication of suspension and support parts would help us with structural rigidity. There ARE a few of us that are actually making bracing that works and does a good job, but there aren't many products available.

I'm sorry if I offended you by questioning your engineering skill. I just figgured you would know that you can't just de-stroke a motor like that. Possibly you've just spaced and didn't realise it would effect where the piston ends up at the end of the stroke, drastically lowering the compression of the engine. It happens.
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post #24 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 10:07 PM
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In the grand scheme of things, what I've learned in these books and classrooms means exactly nothing without real world experience and common sense.
As someone who graduated with an engineering degree from another one of the top rated engineering colleges in the U.S. and is now working as a Design Engineer, I agree with that statement wholeheartedly. In the real world, you'll refer to the books from time to time, but common sense and experience will be your main decision making tools.

Fusion, I don't think anybody here is trying to tell you not to be different, it's just that there are better engines out there to choose from.

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post #25 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 10:09 PM
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the cost vs results just arnt there. thats why no one does it.

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post #26 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
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the cost vs results just arnt there. thats why no one does it.
Guess I should pull the plug on my 6.4L Powerstroke Turbo diesel project then.

As for being a "junior and an engineer major" so what? You're done with your gen-eds just starting to realize what you've got yourself into? You know some flashy terms? Dont get pissed off cause you come in here acting like Mr. Wroblewski... when in all reality you have the technical mastermind of say... Ricerbird. Still with me? Not so much? Hmmm... maybe I'll take some time to go "de-stoke" MY car and rev the **** out of it, while you figure all this out. So sick and tired of people coming on here with ideas that are a shot in hell, and then fighting them till they burn in flames from every direction. No one is ever REALLY gonna try this anyway... hell, I'll even bet you an '02 Cobra. Thanks now I'm all pissed off before I go to bed.

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post #27 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-31-2006, 10:38 PM
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You're done with your gen-eds just starting to realize what you've got yourself into?
I can speak for myself when I say . . . I shoulda majored in basket weaving. Not the biggest job market, but I could get my 8 hours/night.

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post #28 of 75 (permalink) Old 11-01-2006, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by GODSPEED
So sick and tired of people coming on here with ideas that are a shot in hell, and then fighting them till they burn in flames from every direction. No one is ever REALLY gonna try this anyway... hell, I'll even bet you an '02 Cobra. Thanks now I'm all pissed off before I go to bed.

Stick with that mentality. PI is the way to go I hear.
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post #29 of 75 (permalink) Old 11-01-2006, 12:30 AM
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*sigh*.

here, this might help. http://search.ebay.com/search/search...tSearch=Search

im sure there is something there a few of the posters in this thread could take advantage of.




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post #30 of 75 (permalink) Old 11-01-2006, 05:53 AM
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Good find, Obucina.

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