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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-08-2006, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
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DOHC question

Hello all!
Im going to be swapping a DOHC from a mark 8 into my 94 bird here shortly. Ive read alot of posts about the diferences in the head castings for the 93-96 motors. I was looking at a 96 motor from a junk yard. My car is gonig to be a fun street car when done, no drag plans. I figure any good running 32V is better than my aging 16V. I'm not planning on doing any serious modifications. Just install it and make it run decent and driveable.
Does anyone have any thoughts on whether i should even really care about the head versions at this point?

1995 Cougar XR7 4.6
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1985 Capri RS 5.0, 5spd
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-08-2006, 05:00 PM
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To my knowledge, all the Mark 8 heads are the same from 93-98. The 97/98 mark intake manifold is different, and is harder to make work for the swap from what I have heard. The other option would be the 99+ tumble port heads, however these would require a 99+ intake manifold. For what you are trying to do, it really shouldn't matter much what year mark the motor is out of, as long as it is in good running condition.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-08-2006, 05:16 PM
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What exactly were the differences in the 93-96 castings that you read about?

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-08-2006, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmguy
What exactly were the differences in the 93-96 castings that you read about?
I am by no means a DOHC expert, i recall readaing thru some of the posts about "tumble port" and "A" castings versus "B" castings. and something about the 1993 heads not being the best for midrange, but being good for high RPM.

now that ive typed all that it sure looks like i havent read that much.

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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-08-2006, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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I figure that the head type isnt going to make much difference for me. I just want to have a fun car to drive. So if any one has any thoughts or input on the DOHC swap that'll be helpful too.

Or for even more fun i can start another thread asking how to swap a Lightning motor into a bird. "what do you mean by hood scoop?"

1995 Cougar XR7 4.6
1997 Thunderbird LX 4.6
1977 Country Squire 460
1985 Capri RS 5.0, 5spd
1997 Thunderbird 4.6
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-08-2006, 06:55 PM
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Ok. Let me clarify this for you.
-There are no "A" heads. I have heard rumors that there was a prototype head within ford that never made production, but there are no motors with any A heads on them
-The "B" heads are on all 4.6DOHC motors from 93 to 98. This includes all mark 8 motors and all 96-98 mustang cobra motors. B heads are a split port design, and actually flow better than the later C heads, however don't make as much low end torque.
-The "C" heads, AKA tumble port heads, are on all 4.6DOHC motors from 99+ except for the 2000 Cobra R. The 03/04 cobra uses a slightly different version, however they are still the same basic design and intake manifolds will interchange between any 99+ DOHC. You can not swap intakes from a B-headed motor to a C-headed motor. For a street car, these are the best heads, however they cost a lot more, and the intakes generally cost more too, so they probably aren't worth the money.
-Cobra R/Aussie Heads. There was an entirely different head used on the 2000 Cobra R, and it is vastly superior to all the other heads. In america, the only way to get a set of these heads would be to show documentation that you own a cobra R, so they are pretty much un-obtainable. The only shot you would have at getting them would be through australia. The australian Boss 290 motor is essentially the exact same as the 2000 cobra R, but since they aren't a limited edition type thing over there, it would be possible to get them. Only problem would be having someone over there buy them and ship them over to you.

All that being said, if you are on a budget, the B heads are probably your best option.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-08-2006, 09:14 PM
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'b' heads flow slightly more,but have huge ports and suffer from low charge velocity and cylinder filling at low revvs and smaller displacments. thus they have lower torque than 99+ 'c' heads.

my personal choice is 'b' heads in spite of the shortcoming. if boosted they are spectacular. note: periodically cleaning the secondary ports reclaims lost flow from carbon deposits. seeing how you already have an early 4v, i'd stick with it. but compare it to a mach1 motor and the differences are apparent.

also navis have larger port which don't match standard tumble port intakes. just a little mismatch.

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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 02:25 AM Thread Starter
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Big thanks to both of you MadMikeyL and assisinator! Think im sticking with plan A which is head B, for now. Primarily im gonna get the motor in and running and then get on with the paint and body stuff. Once all that is doen ill drive it for awhile, then i can think about pouring big bucks into a new new motor. Thanks again for the great info!

1995 Cougar XR7 4.6
1997 Thunderbird LX 4.6
1977 Country Squire 460
1985 Capri RS 5.0, 5spd
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 03:12 AM
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IMHO, the most bang for the buck with a 4V conversion is the following:

93 - 98 Mark VIII engine
Cobra intake (but will have to figure a way to activate the IMRC's vs. the Gen I intake setup)

Then at a later date install a Vortech supercharger running 6 lbs boost.

Relatively cheap (depends on the price of the blower setup...), very reliable, very simple, and oodles of power.

The "B" head really likes boost with those huge ports.

I'm not sure the above setup will fit under a stock MN12 hood, but I think it will. I know it does on a Gen II Mark VIII, but I'm not sure about an MN12. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but won't a decent stock 4V engine handle 6 lbs of boost all day long? Anything above that and forged internals are recommended, correct?

Just my .02.

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 08:50 AM
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I just finished the swap and was in the same place you are, not sure how far to go. I did the kooks headers and true 2.5 inch exhaust with Magnaflows at the rear and left everything else stock for now. I wanted to make sure it all worked. There is a huge "FUN" factor difference from the SOHC IMHO.

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 09:31 AM
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Yes, forged internals would be a real good idea for much more than the 6lbs stated above. You can get a RPM switch to activate the secondary runners. There are some threads here that describe on what is needed exactly and pretty much how to do it. I plan on getting rid of my IMRC's, only because I'm putting in 4:30's and have a 5spd behind my MKVIII engine.
Midwestbird, are you going to show up at Platoribs for the bon fire?????? If so, I'd like to check out your car

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 10:19 AM
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Im planning on being there, Ive got another party to go to but that should be over early.

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Painted Vista blue as of 08
242hp/251tq
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
Ok. Let me clarify this for you.
-There are no "A" heads. I have heard rumors that there was a prototype head within ford that never made production, but there are no motors with any A heads on them
-The "B" heads are on all 4.6DOHC motors from 93 to 98. This includes all mark 8 motors and all 96-98 mustang cobra motors. B heads are a split port design, and actually flow better than the later C heads, however don't make as much low end torque.
-The "C" heads, AKA tumble port heads, are on all 4.6DOHC motors from 99+ except for the 2000 Cobra R. The 03/04 cobra uses a slightly different version, however they are still the same basic design and intake manifolds will interchange between any 99+ DOHC. You can not swap intakes from a B-headed motor to a C-headed motor. For a street car, these are the best heads, however they cost a lot more, and the intakes generally cost more too, so they probably aren't worth the money.
-Cobra R/Aussie Heads. There was an entirely different head used on the 2000 Cobra R, and it is vastly superior to all the other heads. In america, the only way to get a set of these heads would be to show documentation that you own a cobra R, so they are pretty much un-obtainable. The only shot you would have at getting them would be through australia. The australian Boss 290 motor is essentially the exact same as the 2000 cobra R, but since they aren't a limited edition type thing over there, it would be possible to get them. Only problem would be having someone over there buy them and ship them over to you.

All that being said, if you are on a budget, the B heads are probably your best option.

Mike
Do you by chance know the part numbers for the austrailian heads? I actually know people down under. I could look into those for the future.

1995 Cougar XR7 4.6
1997 Thunderbird LX 4.6
1977 Country Squire 460
1985 Capri RS 5.0, 5spd
1997 Thunderbird 4.6
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 11:17 AM
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Sorry, but no I don't. If you do some internet research you could probably find it out. They are the heads off the Boss 290 motor. If you get those heads, you would need to get the matching intake manifold too.

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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well ill do some reasearch on that then. Not something im gonna get anytime soon, but probably be good info for the club. Aswell maybe i can get a friend to get some sets here if the price is right.

1995 Cougar XR7 4.6
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 02:29 PM
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Supergordo, update us when and if your able to import some of those heads and intakes

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94 Daily Driven 4.6L
IMHO, the most bang for the buck with a 4V conversion is the following:

93 - 98 Mark VIII engine
Cobra intake (but will have to figure a way to activate the IMRC's vs. the Gen I intake setup)

Then at a later date install a Vortech supercharger running 6 lbs boost.

Relatively cheap (depends on the price of the blower setup...), very reliable, very simple, and oodles of power.

The "B" head really likes boost with those huge ports.

I'm not sure the above setup will fit under a stock MN12 hood, but I think it will. I know it does on a Gen II Mark VIII, but I'm not sure about an MN12. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but won't a decent stock 4V engine handle 6 lbs of boost all day long? Anything above that and forged internals are recommended, correct?

Just my .02.

I would go with a 96 to 98 cobra motor and save the trouble of peicing things together. I know the cost of a good cobra core is alot higher then a mark but in the end nobody has 96-98 conbra intakes that they will sell for less then 500. In addition i would also suggest just running a kenne bell and save all the trouble of finding a cobra intake. I dont know what a vortech kit will run but i imagine its atleast 2500 plus the 500 for the cobra intake and its allready almost the cost of the kenne bell. Plus I believe the kenne bell is the way to go, centrifical are not worth the effort.

Will

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 04:01 PM
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I figure any good running 32V is better than my aging 16V. I'm not planning on doing any serious modifications. Just install it and make it run decent and driveable.


Just put the DOHC and enjoy it for awhile. Kb, Vortec, thats pretty serious modifications in our cars with a DOHC implant!!

As of 10-20-06 DOHC POWERED
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242hp/251tq
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-09-2006, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechman1984
nobody has 96-98 conbra intakes that they will sell for less then 500.
Will

You should check over on corral.net, I've seen them go under $400, FYI.
If you do your shopping you can get an 01 or 99 (watch out! it has a defect, some are post fix, and some got the modification to be fixed) for $500.
I paid $550 for my '01 cobra intake, and that was with 24# injectors and every nut and bolt and sensor and fuel rails, etc.


oh, and most ppl would buy a used or rebuilt vortech kit, those can go for cheap too. like $1,800 if you find one of those rich guys who are needing a bigger blower.
Just do your shopping and it can be done.

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-10-2006, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
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Just to clarify, none of the mark 8 dohc's have aluminum blocks, correct?

1995 Cougar XR7 4.6
1997 Thunderbird LX 4.6
1977 Country Squire 460
1985 Capri RS 5.0, 5spd
1997 Thunderbird 4.6
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-10-2006, 04:19 PM
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I believe they are all aluminum...

As of 10-20-06 DOHC POWERED
Painted Vista blue as of 08
242hp/251tq
[email protected] [email protected] Byron Il
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-10-2006, 04:27 PM
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yes.




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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-10-2006, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supergordo
Just to clarify, none of the mark 8 dohc's have aluminum blocks, correct?
All mark VIIIs came with aluminum Teksid blocks and 96 to 98 came with Beehive valve springs.

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-10-2006, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Cool! Thanks everyone.

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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-11-2006, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
Ok. Let me clarify this for you.
-There are no "A" heads. I have heard rumors that there was a prototype head within ford that never made production, but there are no motors with any A heads on them
-The "B" heads are on all 4.6DOHC motors from 93 to 98. This includes all mark 8 motors and all 96-98 mustang cobra motors. B heads are a split port design, and actually flow better than the later C heads, however don't make as much low end torque.
-The "C" heads, AKA tumble port heads, are on all 4.6DOHC motors from 99+ except for the 2000 Cobra R. The 03/04 cobra uses a slightly different version, however they are still the same basic design and intake manifolds will interchange between any 99+ DOHC. You can not swap intakes from a B-headed motor to a C-headed motor. For a street car, these are the best heads, however they cost a lot more, and the intakes generally cost more too, so they probably aren't worth the money.
-Cobra R/Aussie Heads. There was an entirely different head used on the 2000 Cobra R, and it is vastly superior to all the other heads. In america, the only way to get a set of these heads would be to show documentation that you own a cobra R, so they are pretty much un-obtainable. The only shot you would have at getting them would be through australia. The australian Boss 290 motor is essentially the exact same as the 2000 cobra R, but since they aren't a limited edition type thing over there, it would be possible to get them. Only problem would be having someone over there buy them and ship them over to you.

All that being said, if you are on a budget, the B heads are probably your best option.

Mike
the boss 290 heads are more like the 03 cobra heads not the 00' Cobra R's... i had already considered them but there have been guys taking off the intakes from the 290's for their Cobra R's and they do not fit because the ports on the manifold are too small
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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-12-2006, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstats
the boss 290 heads are more like the 03 cobra heads not the 00' Cobra R's... i had already considered them but there have been guys taking off the intakes from the 290's for their Cobra R's and they do not fit because the ports on the manifold are too small

Wrong. The Boss 290 heads are slightly better flowing versions of the cobra R heads. The 03 cobra heads are basically the same as any other 99+ DOHC head, but they have a few changes to them. A 99 cobra intake will bolt right up to 03 cobra heads. The boss 290 head has very different ports than the C head.

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-12-2006, 11:52 PM
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Does anyone know if this swap has been done in a Supercoupe. I have an option to go this route and I know it'll be more reliable than the 3.8SC motor. I can get a 98 Mark engine complete for 750 to my door. I already scored the injector harness on Ebay. I know the wiring might be a nightmare. I've even thought about asking someone else to look through stuff and sort it out for me....I hate wiring.

I could also go with a stand alone system and just wait to get it running until I have a C4 and a power adder.

I had a 96 with a PI motor, bullitt intake and the Vortech. I think the 4v with a power adder would be a lot of fun.

What makes the 97/98 intake harder to run with this swap?

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 12:23 AM
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This swap would be no problem if you converted over to the 96/97 wiring harnass. Then it would essentailly be plug and play. Nothings really hard about the swap if you use a 96/97 tbird with the 97/98 motor or the 94/95 tbird with the 93/96 mark engine. The electronics are the same. Its when you jump years that the electronics differ ie early obd2 to fully obd2.

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 02:58 AM
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What did you need for the DOHC swap outside of the heads themselves? Did you need new timing chain, intake manifold? exhaust manifold?

how cheaply can this swap be done and how quickly on a 95?

96 Laser Red 4.6L - Custom
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TydlwavS
Does anyone know if this swap has been done in a Supercoupe.
I did the swap in my 90 XR7. As far as the wiring goes, I don't have a single stock wire left on the car. For the most part, I converted the wiring over to a 97 4.6L MN12 setup, then made the necessary changes to fit the wiring to the DOHC engine and other misc. parts. I'm running a 97 4.6L MN12 EEC with a SCt chip.

In other words, if you don't enjoy wiring, you might not want to do the swap into a SC. It would be SO much easier to do the swap in a 94-97 4.6L MN12.

-Rod

Rod @ AzzKicker Cars
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