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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 09:32 PM Thread Starter
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Looking for Ideas - Detonation in Exhaust

OK, if you've followed my Project Resurrection thread, you've seen my issues with the engine. I'm at a loss so I figured I would start a thread in this forum to start figuring out how to troubleshoot the issue.

I'll try to create a video with the audio of what's going on but I don't have that just yet. I'll post it when I have it.

Long story short, all signs point to detonation in the exhaust. It does this almost immediately after starting the car. I say detonation in the exhaust because I had a buddy check it out with me and he indicated that it was detonation in the exhaust.

Here is a short list of what I've checked/changed:
  • Ignition System
  • Timing
  • Fuel Pressure
  • Vacuum Leaks (as best as I could)
  • Exhaust Leaks
  • Pulled Codes (No codes)
  • Re-flashed Chip
  • Wiring

I'm open to any other ideas.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 12:06 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Detonation in the exhaust Immediately after Starting it would have to mean at least one cylinder is firing with an exhaust valve open, and unburned fuel is in the exhaust.

If it does it after the exhaust is hot, then it can be too much fuel, maybe a stuck injector.



Can you tell if it's one cylinder, on both sides, or randomly in both sides?

Adding a meter across an injector, and shining the timing light hooked to that cylinder could show this; the injector has to fire, then the spark, and the crank needs to be in the right spot.
If you can get an led across the injector and shine it on the crank wheel, you could see how many degrees apart they are, and where it's timing.
Search this: MSD Ignition Timing Tapes for Harmonic Balancers
These are tapes that stick to the harmonic balancer, and show the timing.

A boom in the exhaust is going to be after TDC; it should be before. Max on my car is set to about 20 degrees before, iirc.

A consistent ignition in the exhaust is going to be the timing is off, somehow.

A random firing is going to probably be noise pickup in the sensor wiring; or maybe a bad pickup in the distributor. (maybe a spark plug wire is too close to a sensor wire, or a spark leak in the distributor?)
Spark leaking in the distributor should leave a track, a darkened area like a line drawn with a pencil.
If the cap is dirty, you can wash it out with rubbing alcohol, or starting fluid.

One side only could be a stuck valve, and it's open when the cylinder fires. But where's the gas coming from, if there's no timing problem?
And you usually hear valve problems, when the piston smacks it.

That's everything I can think of; I hope it helps.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 05:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Detonation in the exhaust Immediately after Starting it would have to mean at least one cylinder is firing with an exhaust valve open, and unburned fuel is in the exhaust.
While I agree with this in principle, it also doesn't make sense when I think about it. I'll try to get a video/audio of it.

Quote:
If it does it after the exhaust is hot, then it can be too much fuel, maybe a stuck injector.
The car has never had a chance to get hot. I have replaced all of the injectors with new ones. I don't think this is it.

Quote:
Can you tell if it's one cylinder, on both sides, or randomly in both sides?
It is totally random. It sounds like it's all sides but I've been afraid to run it too long to find out for sure.

Quote:
Adding a meter across an injector, and shining the timing light hooked to that cylinder could show this; the injector has to fire, then the spark, and the crank needs to be in the right spot.
If you can get an led across the injector and shine it on the crank wheel, you could see how many degrees apart they are, and where it's timing.
Search this: MSD Ignition Timing Tapes for Harmonic Balancers
These are tapes that stick to the harmonic balancer, and show the timing.
I have a balancer that has timing marks on it. I have manually set the timing and ensured it's right by using my compression tester and hand cranking the engine until I'm getting compression on #1 and it aligns to the 10 degrees BTDC and then installing the distributor per standard practice. I have run the car long enough to then use the timing light (with SPOUT removed) and set the timing at run to 10 degrees BTDC. The timing is correct for sure.

Quote:
A boom in the exhaust is going to be after TDC; it should be before. Max on my car is set to about 20 degrees before, iirc.
A consistent ignition in the exhaust is going to be the timing is off, somehow.
See timing comment above.

Quote:
A random firing is going to probably be noise pickup in the sensor wiring; or maybe a bad pickup in the distributor. (maybe a spark plug wire is too close to a sensor wire, or a spark leak in the distributor?)
Spark leaking in the distributor should leave a track, a darkened area like a line drawn with a pencil.
If the cap is dirty, you can wash it out with rubbing alcohol, or starting fluid.
I've been worried that this is a thing. I have swapped distributors without any change. I have re-routed the wires because I thought that maybe that was the issue but it showed nothing. I pursued the shielded wire stuff and it's all shielded and nowhere near the alternator. I have checked the cap repeatedly and there is nothing strange inside it. No odd marks, no extra dirt/dust. Just looks normal. I still feel like this is a thing however.

Quote:
One side only could be a stuck valve, and it's open when the cylinder fires. But where's the gas coming from, if there's no timing problem?
And you usually hear valve problems, when the piston smacks it.
It feels like if I had a stuck valve that I would experience something more consistent. When I had a buddy listen to the car in person his assessment was that the car is running normally other than the loud pops. He's built several engines that actually run and have run for years so I trust him. He's actually the guy that got me into all of this almost 20 years ago.

Quote:
That's everything I can think of; I hope it helps.
That does help. If nothing else it helps my sanity.

I have to admit one thing. I dreamed of it all night last night. The vacuum hose for the PCV valve to the upper intake ports is the original for the car. It's rather firm but I haven't replaced it because it's a molded hose and there is no aftermarket replacement. It's also the biggest diameter vacuum hose. If it's sucking air then it could be significant. I'll work to change that this evening but since I've tried so many other things without success I'm not getting my hopes up on this one either.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 08:14 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Silly question, but you did change out the eec at some point, I think, right?

If you're using a chip, can you try it without it without blowing anything up?

Dang; this is too good a project for something random like this.

I just had to throw everything out there; I'm betting when you find it, it will be something easy; that's the way it seems to go with me, anyway.

Keep your chin up; we'll find it.

We need Matt; he's the Genius.
I'm more the village idiot, on a good day, lol.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Silly question, but you did change out the eec at some point, I think, right?

If you're using a chip, can you try it without it without blowing anything up?

Dang; this is too good a project for something random like this.

I just had to throw everything out there; I'm betting when you find it, it will be something easy; that's the way it seems to go with me, anyway.

Keep your chin up; we'll find it.

We need Matt; he's the Genius.
I'm more the village idiot, on a good day, lol.
I have also swapped the ECM with no success. I could pull the chip but it would resort to running off the stock tables for 19lb. injectors and the stock MAF. It would then be super rich and I would expect the problem to be worse.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 05:18 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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I agree it would not be optimal, but at idle it might be close enough to run, and I'm just curious if it still fires in the exhaust.

I certainly wouldn't want to blip the throttle hard; it will be ~20-30% lean, but it doesn't take a bunch of gas to idle.

It will probably act like it's starving for gas, but the lack of the 'boom' would tell you a lot.

I'm just wondering if there's a way to eliminate the piggyback chip as a source for this.

EEPROM chips have been known to toggle bits when they get old. (That's why they put tape over the window on the older ones, UV light from florescent lights would erase them sitting on the bench. I've had that happen at work, years ago; that's hard to find, lol)

I'm sure you've cleaned the pins carefully, and all that stuff; but when I get wrong results, flashing back to the stock program to see if it runs is my first step.
In my case, it's usually my fault, lol.

I'm just trying to cover everything; like I said before, when you find it, it will be something easy we haven't thought of yet.

It ran perfect before the wreck; and it's really close, just with some unwanted 'features'.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I agree it would not be optimal, but at idle it might be close enough to run, and I'm just curious if it still fires in the exhaust.

I certainly wouldn't want to blip the throttle hard; it will be ~20-30% lean, but it doesn't take a bunch of gas to idle.

It will probably act like it's starving for gas, but the lack of the 'boom' would tell you a lot.

I'm just wondering if there's a way to eliminate the piggyback chip as a source for this.

EEPROM chips have been known to toggle bits when they get old. (That's why they put tape over the window on the older ones, UV light from florescent lights would erase them sitting on the bench. I've had that happen at work, years ago; that's hard to find, lol)

I'm sure you've cleaned the pins carefully, and all that stuff; but when I get wrong results, flashing back to the stock program to see if it runs is my first step.
In my case, it's usually my fault, lol.

I'm just trying to cover everything; like I said before, when you find it, it will be something easy we haven't thought of yet.

It ran perfect before the wreck; and it's really close, just with some unwanted 'features'.
OK, more work. I did swap chips. At first I thought I fixed it but the more I observe it, the more I know that it's a problem that only exists at idle. If I give it some gas then it clears up. I'm beginning to wonder if I have a stuck injector or something. I'm also wondering if the base tables are just too rich and it's causing it because it seemed like it improved once it started to warm up a bit. I'm still confused but it's better than I was feeling.

Video with burned chip:
https://youtu.be/p7WRoPUXuzc

Video with Quarterhorse:
https://youtu.be/qN0HVJdAaVc

I apologize in advance for the shitty audio. Apparently my phone doesn't handle that noise all that well. You'll still get the picture of what it's doing though.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 01:39 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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I've heard that before; that's what my 750 does when the carbs need cleaning, and are dribbling gas down the pipes.

I think you're on the right track; rich, or stuck injector.

That does not sound like it's in the manifold, but lower down.

I'm guessing there's no restriction in the exhaust, so it whooshes rather than bangs.

Are you sure there's not a puddle of gas in the pipes?

The normal firing will blow it out, then it will pop again as air gets scavenged back into the pipe.

It's rich burning (lots of fuel to the air, when it whooshes), otherwise the pipes would ring.

The QH video seems to do it less; can you compare the tables?

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I've heard that before; that's what my 750 does when the carbs need cleaning, and are dribbling gas down the pipes.

I think you're on the right track; rich, or stuck injector.

That does not sound like it's in the manifold, but lower down.

I'm guessing there's no restriction in the exhaust, so it whooshes rather than bangs.

Are you sure there's not a puddle of gas in the pipes?

The normal firing will blow it out, then it will pop again as air gets scavenged back into the pipe.

It's rich burning (lots of fuel to the air, when it whooshes), otherwise the pipes would ring.

The QH video seems to do it less; can you compare the tables?
So, it's either too much fuel or unmetered air. I feel better about it now. Matt mentioned that he thinks it's unmetered air. I have two things to check. One is the thermactor ports on the back of the heads. The other is the connection at the collectors. When the engine was pulled and on a stand the plugs on the thermactor ports could have loosened. The collectors have been a deteriorating connection for a while because of all of the removals. I'll work on those first.

The too much fuel thing seems less likely but I can roll back to the old injectors and see if that helps if the air fixes don't.
Grog6 likes this.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 03:26 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
So, it's either too much fuel or unmetered air. I feel better about it now. Matt mentioned that he thinks it's unmetered air. I have two things to check. One is the thermactor ports on the back of the heads. The other is the connection at the collectors. When the engine was pulled and on a stand the plugs on the thermactor ports could have loosened. The collectors have been a deteriorating connection for a while because of all of the removals. I'll work on those first.

The too much fuel thing seems less likely but I can roll back to the old injectors and see if that helps if the air fixes don't.
This problem could easily be air getting sucked into the collectors; all engines start rich, so I'd let her warm up and see if it goes away.

The level of 'afterfiring' isn't exhaust shattering, so I'd run it for a bit to see if it goes away, and see what the fuel trims say when it gets into closed loop.

I've heard properly running carbed cars with more exhaust pop than that.

Seems like some of the chevy guys add air into the exhaust just to do that, iirc.

Other than the slight pop, it sounds really good.

It sounds to me like it wants to add some nice rubber marks to your neighborhood, lol.


Do you have a wideband?

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
This problem could easily be air getting sucked into the collectors; all engines start rich, so I'd let her warm up and see if it goes away.

The level of 'afterfiring' isn't exhaust shattering, so I'd run it for a bit to see if it goes away, and see what the fuel trims say when it gets into closed loop.

I've heard properly running carbed cars with more exhaust pop than that.

Seems like some of the chevy guys add air into the exhaust just to do that, iirc.

Other than the slight pop, it sounds really good.

It sounds to me like it wants to add some nice rubber marks to your neighborhood, lol.


Do you have a wideband?
I haven't had familiarity with a car that snapped and popped like that so it was definitely freaking me out. I also think that it's coming in around the collectors because my entire exhaust system is super tight and while I thought I was pulling things in tighter, I was probably just bending the retainer rings on that bolt the exhaust to the headers.

I do have a wideband, just not installed. I'll fix the next most obvious thing and work from there. I'll keep you updated.

Thanks again for all of the help.
Grog6 likes this.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 05:42 PM
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why are you not logging with the quarterhorse? that would tell you rather quickly whats going on

supercoupin'

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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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why are you not logging with the quarterhorse? that would tell you rather quickly whats going on
I had a burned chip in the car. I do generally have it resolved now.

I'm just in hell getting the clutch to work. I can get the throwout bearing to move about 1/2 inch which either apparently isn't enough to get the clutch to disengage or something else is wrong.

I don't want to have to remove the transmission but that may be where I am.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 08:21 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
... I can get the throwout bearing to move about 1/2 inch which either apparently isn't enough to get the clutch to disengage or something else is wrong.

...
If the clutch moves 1/2", and it doesn't disengage, something is wrong.

Most clutches I've ever dealt with move less than that.

I've ground 1/8" (average, it was ugly) off a clutch plate to keep it from disengaging.

I hate to say it, but if it really is moving that far, you gotta take it apart to look.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 08:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
If the clutch moves 1/2", and it doesn't disengage, something is wrong.

Most clutches I've ever dealt with move less than that.

I've ground 1/8" (average, it was ugly) off a clutch plate to keep it from disengaging.

I hate to say it, but if it really is moving that far, you gotta take it apart to look.

Before I pull it apart, what should I be looking for? I can see the clutch pushing in. Is it possible that it's out of alignment somehow? I wouldn't have thought I could get the transmission back onto the engine if it was it out of alignment somehow.

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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:08 PM
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My suspicion is still the new flywheel, if it’s closer to the engine than the last one the TOB will be too far to act on the fingers. I can’t think of anything else, it’s the one thing that has changed in the equation
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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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My suspicion is still the new flywheel, if it’s closer to the engine than the last one the TOB will be too far to act on the fingers. I can’t think of anything else, it’s the one thing that has changed in the equation
I generally agree but I didn't see any obvious differences when I put it in.

I guess I know what I'm doing this weekend.

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"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:13 PM
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The clutch only has to move 1/4" to let go; it needs to compress the springs, and clear the surface.

You're moving 1/2"; that should be way clear.

You're going to have to look.

Are you SURE it's moving that far?

If it's not, I could see it; but at that level of travel, you should have nothing.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
The clutch only has to move 1/4" to let go; it needs to compress the springs, and clear the surface.

You're moving 1/2"; that should be way clear.

You're going to have to look.

Are you SURE it's moving that far?

If it's not, I could see it; but at that level of travel, you should have nothing.
It's definitely moving that far.

I found a post here that may well be the problem: https://www.explorerforum.com/forums...engage.444364/

In my effort to get pressure plate bolts that are appropriate, I may have ones that are just a bit too long. I'll inspect that this weekend too.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
It's definitely moving that far.

I found a post here that may well be the problem: https://www.explorerforum.com/forums...engage.444364/

In my effort to get pressure plate bolts that are appropriate, I may have ones that are just a bit too long. I'll inspect that this weekend too.
Use markup fluid, like prussian blue, to mark everything before you put it back together; that way, you will have marks inside that show you what's wrong, IF you have to take it apart again.

That sux; I've never tried to piece together parts from different stuff to make them work, as far a s clutches are concerned.

Well, manual ones, lol.
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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OK, so the effort to do a reverse bleed didn't help. There is definitely something binding because the wheels don't really want to turn even with the car in neutral. I guess I'm pulling the transmission back out.

The bright side is that I can fix the collectors.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 07:46 PM
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On the good side, maybe the clutch/linkage is all ok.

Rebuilding those isn't too bad (manuals in general); I'd bet it's in the shift forks, like Matt had to redo.

If they're bent, you can be in two gears at the same time; I've had a bike do that.

It's better in a car; you don't crash instantly.

Are there two levers on the tranny linkage?
I remember an old chevy work van that the linkage would get jacked, external to the tranny, and you could crawl out in the middle of the intersection and jam it back into place with a big screwdriver. (god, I hated that van; they would Not replace it.)

It hit like 2nd and third, going to second, or some such.

What I'm getting at is that it might be a linkage problem, and that might be fixable externally.
One fork moves, one doesn't.

Have you tried moving the rear wheels backwards, while someone jacks the linkage/shifter? That was also a thing.
If it suddenly frees up, you know what to looks for, for sure, before you pull it.

For the record, I know nothing about these particular transmissions.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
On the good side, maybe the clutch/linkage is all ok.

Rebuilding those isn't too bad (manuals in general); I'd bet it's in the shift forks, like Matt had to redo.

If they're bent, you can be in two gears at the same time; I've had a bike do that.

It's better in a car; you don't crash instantly.

Are there two levers on the tranny linkage?
I remember an old chevy work van that the linkage would get jacked, external to the tranny, and you could crawl out in the middle of the intersection and jam it back into place with a big screwdriver. (god, I hated that van; they would Not replace it.)

It hit like 2nd and third, going to second, or some such.

What I'm getting at is that it might be a linkage problem, and that might be fixable externally.
One fork moves, one doesn't.

Have you tried moving the rear wheels backwards, while someone jacks the linkage/shifter? That was also a thing.
If it suddenly frees up, you know what to looks for, for sure, before you pull it.

For the record, I know nothing about these particular transmissions.
To my knowledge every thing is internal on these transmission. The car seems to shift just fine, it just won't disengage the clutch. Something is binding up and I'll need to separate the transmission from the engine to see what's up.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
Something is binding up and I'll need to separate the transmission from the engine to see what's up.
I read the thread you referenced, and a few of the others; from what they're saying it could be the input shaft binding up.

Dude said he dropped the DS, and pulled the tranny back on the mount, and it freed up.


I wonder if it shifted on the dowels while it was running before.

Didn't you have some issues with that clutch, going in? They mentioned the shoulder bolts, and that sounded familiar.
I can't seem to find your thread...

Ah crap; you'll find it.

I just hate that it's giving you this much crap after you've came so far.

Like you said tho, it gives you an opportunity to mess with the collectors.

I want to see this baby run; but not as much as you do, I bet.

Don't let it discourage you!



EDIT:

OK, afer reading that thread, and Reading your thread again, you and S4Gunn discussed the clutch bolts a bit.

Is it possible that this is the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
Things have been moving along slowly. Like so many things, I've had to wait for stuff to get lined up. The latest is that when I did the manual swap I was very paranoid that I didn't have the correct bolts for the pressure plate. The standard 5/16" bolts that ARP and FRPP lists for this combination didn't work in the cast iron flywheel and, even though the Fidanza flywheel had holes that the bolts fit, the holes in the Spec pressure plate didn't line up to those holes. The end result is that I bought a set of ARP bolts that were listed to fit a Pontiac pressure plate that are 3/8" x 1" and are shouldered like is specified. The worked perfectly. The blue Loctite is on all of the fasteners and the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate are all installed. The next step is to install the transmission and work from there. Now for finding more spare time.

I've added a couple of pictures for fun.






Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
I found a similar issue when I went from a SC flywheel to a F150 M5R2 flywheel.
Every time I find something unique like this, I document it so I have a spreadsheet that shows exactly what bolts I need for a specific application and the torque spec.

My notes showed that I needed 7/16-20 x 1" for the PP to Flywheel bolts

F150 5.0 M5R2 Flywheel: 7/16-20 x 1" (Mr Gasket set #4698)
NOTE: Some flywheels use a 3/8-16 x 1"
35ft-LBs or 420in-lbs

Also, you're using the stock SC Master, I think; how does it relate to the one discussed in the previously linked thread? Is there enough volume to activate the internal slave, vs the external slave the SC has?

I'm not knowledgeable enough to say here, but this is something that was not totally "Issue Free" in your previous thread, and S4Gunn used a different flywheel, it seems to me.

In some of the threads I read, bolt shoulder size was one thing not letting go, and the other threads were the Master too small, and not letting go.

I'm just looking for stuff we might have missed; TheF150 guy said he needed a different master, but another thread didn't, so IDK.

The tranny sticking was mentioned from the beginning, so it's not something that suddenly happened, as I think I thought.

The Very last thing I can think of: Is this the same tranny from the wrecked car? Could it have gotten pounded to where it won't work, and is bent and or dragging?

If you pull it loose, you should be able to hit neutral, and turn it and see.

I'm sure you've been all thru this, but this is all I see remaining as an unknown.

Just trying to help!
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Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote

Last edited by Grog6; 06-09-2019 at 10:34 PM.
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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I read the thread you referenced, and a few of the others; from what they're saying it could be the input shaft binding up.

Dude said he dropped the DS, and pulled the tranny back on the mount, and it freed up.


I wonder if it shifted on the dowels while it was running before.

Didn't you have some issues with that clutch, going in? They mentioned the shoulder bolts, and that sounded familiar.
I can't seem to find your thread...

Ah crap; you'll find it.

I just hate that it's giving you this much crap after you've came so far.

Like you said tho, it gives you an opportunity to mess with the collectors.

I want to see this baby run; but not as much as you do, I bet.

Don't let it discourage you!



EDIT:

OK, afer reading that thread, and Reading your thread again, you and S4Gunn discussed the clutch bolts a bit.

Is it possible that this is the problem?












Also, you're using the stock SC Master, I think; how does it relate to the one discussed in the previously linked thread? Is there enough volume to activate the internal slave, vs the external slave the SC has?

I'm not knowledgeable enough to say here, but this is something that was not totally "Issue Free" in your previous thread, and S4Gunn used a different flywheel, it seems to me.

In some of the threads I read, bolt shoulder size was one thing not letting go, and the other threads were the Master too small, and not letting go.

I'm just looking for stuff we might have missed; TheF150 guy said he needed a different master, but another thread didn't, so IDK.

The tranny sticking was mentioned from the beginning, so it's not something that suddenly happened, as I think I thought.

The Very last thing I can think of: Is this the same tranny from the wrecked car? Could it have gotten pounded to where it won't work, and is bent and or dragging?

If you pull it loose, you should be able to hit neutral, and turn it and see.

I'm sure you've been all thru this, but this is all I see remaining as an unknown.

Just trying to help!
My setup was the following:
* SC clutch slave cylinder (inside the bellhousing; sits on the input shaft)
* SC clutch master
* Custom clutch line (extra long with disconnector in the middle instead of inside the bell housing)
* 95 F150 Flywheel, pressure plate, and Starter.
* I had to grind the opening in the SC scattershield a little wider to fit the raised lip on the F150 starter OR grind the lip off the starter. I did it one way until I fixed the plate itself.

Knock on wood but i never had any issues with this setup.
I did notice once when I picked up the F150 clutch slave that it was a bit too long (didn't fit on the SC M5R2 input shaft the same way as with the SC).


Q: Wasn't this the same clutch/transmission setup that was on the previous car before the accident? If so, I hope the input shaft on on Randy's M5R2 wasnt bent.

Also, how were you able to confirm that the clutch was moving in 1/2" (from the inspection port on the bellhousing)?

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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post

Also, you're using the stock SC Master, I think; how does it relate to the one discussed in the previously linked thread? Is there enough volume to activate the internal slave, vs the external slave the SC has?
His is the exact same setup as the SC, there were never external slaves on them.

-Matt
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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 01:45 PM
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I keep thinking of your thread, with the external slave. D'oh!

Seems like Vic made one too.

My bad.

The only difference I see between S4gunn's setup and this guy is the Fidanza flywheel, and the side impact.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 01:54 PM
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Ah, my external slave is from a Chevy


I have doubts about the input shaft getting bent in the accident, I feel like there’d be very obvious signs of fatigue and damage if it were turned into a banana with the body, the mounts should have absorbed the brunt

-Matt
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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OK, lots of replies.

You've all nailed it in general. The transmission was in working order after the wreck since I drove it from the track to the tow truck. I also pulled it into the garage and out a few times.

The throwout bearing is definitely moving about 1/2" when pressing the clutch and I have verified that through the inspection window.

I'll just take it apart and see what I see.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 05:21 PM
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Which parts are new, Just the flywheel and physical clutch plates/cover?

Do you still have the old parts? That gives you something to compare to.

One of the threads I saw elsewhere said something about the pilot bushing being the wrong size; I doubt you changed it, iirc it's in the crank.


I might try one more thing (I'm nuts...); since the slave is above the master, there could be a bubble in there.

If you REALLY want to know before you take it apart, you could hit the slave with the compressor to see if it will release.

If it's an air bubble, 150psi should still operate the throwout, unless you put a monster spring in it, or it's mechanically stuck.

It Will have an air bubble after that, so it still has to come out; but you'd know what it is.

It might blow the seals out of the slave, so there's that issue; I don't think so, but it's possible.

I test auto clutches with air, is why I even suggest it.
Nothing like building an auto clutch, and finding out a lip is curled over inside; I did that on the first one.


If you have one of the handheld brake "power bleeders", you could use that, and not really risk getting an air bubble in there.
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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