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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Cam Experts, I need help.

Okay gang, I need some advice from some real experienced V6'rs here.

I bought my cam today but it wont be here for a few weeks. I bought it from Tom over at supersixmotorsports. He told me that he didn't think I would need to change the push rods and lifters, but the only way to know for sure, is once I get it all torn down, only then will I be able to know if I need to replace pushrods and lifters. He said that I shouldn't need to though.

The Cam I bought is a 212/218 .54-.545 w/1.7's .554 w/1.73's 110 lobe seperation. The factory cam on the 96-98 3.8's is 184/202 with a .050 lift, .424/.448 valve lift and 110 lobe seperation. Have any of you guys used a cam like this on a 96-98 3.8 Ford and if so, did you need to change pushrods and lifters? If so, what size did you have to go with? I have going on 94K on the clock.

Thanks

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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BlakTbird96 View Post
Okay gang, I need some advice from some real experienced V6'rs here.

I bought my cam today but it wont be here for a few weeks. I bought it from Tom over at supersixmotorsports. He told me that he didn't think I would need to change the push rods and lifters, but the only way to know for sure, is once I get it all torn down, only then will I be able to know if I need to replace pushrods and lifters. He said that I shouldn't need to though.

The Cam I bought is a 212/218 .540/.540 The lift is .545 w/1.7's, .554 w/1.73's.110 lobe seperation with the spacer and key pre-installed. The factory cam on the 96-98 3.8's is 184/202 with a .050 lift, .424/.448 valve lift and 110 lobe seperation. Have any of you guys used a cam like this on a 96-98 3.8 Ford and if so, did you need to change pushrods and lifters? If so, what size did you have to go with? I have going on 94K on the clock.

Thanks
Edited/comments removed

ps BlakTbird96........... I put 325k on the V6. Have fun! DUDE

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

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To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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I know nothing about V-6's when it comes to cam specs. I have a "MAJOR" problem with a cam seller who can't make lifter recommendations, not mentioned is "spring specs", not just seat/full lift tensions but lb/inch specs. Pushrods, you will always have to measure, to many variables. So what minimum requirements are there for the pushrods? Your using this on a stock head? 110* LSA. Is this off .50 lift, then you have valve/piston clearance issues possible (do you know how to check?). What spec did he give you for the torque converter? How about minimum exhaust? What minimal specs you have been given would be considered mild on a 347, stout on a 302, radical on a 232. Are you prepared for this? If not this is "CRAP"!

Sorry, this is not opinion!
Brad

Dude, I can't tell if you're yelling, mocking me, or what? Take a zanny bro, sorry about the dude whose giving you issues. My question was more directed towards the 3.8'rs incase ya didn't notice.

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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:17 PM
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Dude, I can't tell if you're yelling, mocking me, or what? Take a zanny bro, sorry about the dude whose giving you issues.
I am not yelling at you, at the man selling you a 3200lb Mustang cam for your 3800lb TBird, yes. I will go remove my post. Sorry. Good luck.

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
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I am not yelling at you, at the man selling you a 3200lb Mustang cam for your 3800lb TBird, yes. I will go remove my post. Sorry. Good luck.

Brad
hehehe, no problem dude, miscommunication happens. Actually, he said the cam he's selling me is better for the heavier cars. I'm just not quite sure how to determine the lift.

First he said it's a .54/.54, then he says its a .54-.545w/1.7's and .554 w/1.73's I don't know what the phuk this means. YIKES!!! I guess I should have took some autotech back in the day. hehehe it's like algebra class all over. BLAH

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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:45 PM
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hehehe, no problem dude, miscommunication happens. Actually, he said the cam he's selling me is better for the heavier cars. I'm just not quite sure how to determine the lift.

First he said it's a .54/.54, then he says its a .54-.545w/1.7's and .554 w/1.73's I don't know what the phuk this means. YIKES!!! I guess I should have took some autotech back in the day. hehehe it's like algebra class all over. BLAH
Not bad if you had a 350 cube 6 cylinder with the heads to feed it. The numbers just don't work. Sorry, you asked. The rest I said fits with "any" cam purchase. Proper springs work with the ramps of the cam to create maximum lifter "and" valve control while using the least horsepower. I still don't understand how you are going to know when "you take your engine apart". I wouldn't and I think I might just have a little more tear down experience. I am not a cam man. Know enough to hire one.

Brad

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To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakTbird96 View Post
The Cam I bought is a 212/218 .54-.545 w/1.7's .554 w/1.73's 110 lobe seperation. The factory cam on the 96-98 3.8's is [B]184/202 with a .050 lift, .424/.448 valve lift and 110 lobe seperation
The 212/218 is the duration ( intake/exhaust how long the valve stays open)

.540/.545 is the lift of the valve w/ a 1.7 rocker arm ratio
.554 is with the 1.73 ratio

110 lsa is the seperation of the lobe centerlines (bigger number less overlap)

So the cam you have has 28º intake and 16º exhaust more duration than stock.
The lift will vary on the rocker ratio but likely a .115intake/.100exhaust increase
and the 110 lsa didnt change from stock. So it should have a smooth idle close to stock with good vaccum.

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 06:36 AM
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I think what he is trying to say is that you don't need to change the lifters or pushrods unless they are worn out, Which you can't tell until you pull it apart.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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I'm trying to get a hold of Tom to make a better comparison. I don't understand how to read the numbers,

The factory cam on the 96-98 3.8's is: 184/202 @ .050 lift, .424/.448 valve lift, 110 lobe seperation.

The cam I bought is: 212/218, .54/.54 valve lift with 110 lobe seperation. What is the regular "lift" on this cam, not the valve lift. Just like the lift for the factory cam says ".050 lift", what is it on this one that I bought?

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 05:56 PM
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I'm trying to get a hold of Tom to make a better comparison. I don't understand how to read the numbers,

The factory cam on the 96-98 3.8's is: 184/202 @ .050 lift, .424/.448 valve lift, 110 lobe seperation.

The cam I bought is: 212/218, .54/.54 valve lift with 110 lobe seperation. What is the regular "lift" on this cam, not the valve lift. Just like the lift for the factory cam says ".050 lift", what is it on this one that I bought?
Lift is lift. You are confusing duration which is how long the cam is keeping the valve open vs. lift which is how far the valve is opened (lifted) off the seat. Duration #'s used to be calculated at all different lifts (starting/ending points) but how has standardized at .050 lift before duration #'s are calculated. Believe it or not, there are far more important #'s that you are not getting with these cam specs. IO/IC/ICent..........EO/EC/ECent are far more important. From these #'s comes all the duration and LSA calculations. When a cam seller only lists the 212/218, .54/.54 valve lift with 110 lobe seperation type numbers it tells very little. Fits all the magazine articles though. Kinda like make the highest peak horsepower on the dyno. Has nothing to do with how engine will perform in a package.

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

[email protected] (engine/trans is stock)

To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 06:13 PM
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Here is Buddy Rawls site:

http://wighat.com/fcr3/camtruth.htm

It is worth the time to get a good overview on camshafts. He has great graphics once you get through the technical. You can't just throw a camshaft in that someone says worked great for them. There is a whole lot more to it. Hope this helps. I'm not dissing you at all. I have been there and done that.

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

[email protected] (engine/trans is stock)

To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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I don't think I told you that I'm not putting this on a stock engine. I am installing this cam along with ported/polished heads and intakes and a bigger throttle body if that makes a difference.

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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 06:26 PM
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I don't think I told you that I'm not putting this on a stock engine. I am installing this cam along with ported/polished heads and intakes and a bigger throttle body if that makes a difference.
I would hope so. Are you married to this cam yet? What else have you done? Gears I hope. Transmission? Exhaust. Those are restrictive stock headers. Don't get me wrong, I have had my a** handed to me a few times by SC's so I have no preconceived ideas about the 3.8. I thought it was an "adequate" engine for the car stock.

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

[email protected] (engine/trans is stock)

To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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I would hope so. Are you married to this cam yet? What else have you done? Gears I hope. Transmission? Exhaust. Those are restrictive stock headers. Don't get me wrong, I have had my a** handed to me a few times by SC's so I have no preconceived ideas about the 3.8. I thought it was an "adequate" engine for the car stock.

Brad

I have a 2800 high stall (dirty d0g) converter, dual exhaust (pumpkin back), removed air silencer, shift kit, underdrive pulleys.

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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 10:50 PM
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I have a 2800 high stall (dirty d0g) converter, dual exhaust (pumpkin back), removed air silencer, shift kit, underdrive pulleys.
I did observe your et's. You are going to want to move forward of the axle on the exhaust. Get the restrictions out of the way. I know many think true duals or 3" going around the tank are overkill on a V6. I don't. Headers either. What gear you running? You are hauling a load with no reasonable way to change it. Doesn't mean you can't run, just need to prepare better.

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

[email protected] (engine/trans is stock)

To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 11:25 PM
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3" would kill velocity creating a poor scavenging effect. 3" single isnt even recomended on a stock NA 281 . I wouldnt effect power but will kill torque down low. Why are you installing a cam in your 3.8?

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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 11:51 PM
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3" would kill velocity creating a poor scavenging effect. 3" single isnt even recomended on a NA 281. I wouldnt effect power but will kill torque down low. Why are you installing a cam in your 3.8?
So, we must agree to disagree. Too many magazines. We're not talking long tube header pipes here where scavenging is an issue. It's all about the cam timing events at his power level, my power level, etc. If the engine loses power with a free flowing muffled exhaust, the cam is wrong. On a fuel injected engine, if the engine gains power with a more restricted intake, the cam is wrong. Go run around the block breathing both ways through a straw. Do it again with your mouth open. Now tell me, which way is "your" engine better off. All the rest is event timing. Basic 101 engine specs been around forever whether timed by a camshaft or a port.

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To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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Why are you installing a cam in your 3.8?
Because I want it to be quicker!!! I'm doing a cam, ported/polished heads, intakes, larger throttle body. Some here say V6's are a waste of money to try an make faster, but I'm determined and I'm going to do whatever I can to "git r done" Some V6'rs here have done it and there are plenty of 3.8 Mustangs running 12's and 13's without nitrous or a blower. The Tbird is about 300-500lbs heavier so it may not be as fast with the same mods as the V6 Stangs, but it should definantly be an improvement over what I got now.
I'm not trying to get an all out "drag car" but I want more pep.

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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 11:30 AM
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Because I want it to be quicker!!! I'm doing a cam, ported/polished heads, intakes, larger throttle body. Some here say V6's are a waste of money to try an make faster, but I'm determined and I'm going to do whatever I can to "git r done" Some V6'rs here have done it and there are plenty of 3.8 Mustangs running 12's and 13's without nitrous or a blower. The Tbird is about 300-500lbs heavier so it may not be as fast with the same mods as the V6 Stangs, but it should definantly be an improvement over what I got now.
I'm not trying to get an all out "drag car" but I want more pep.
Amazing, I guess Ford was wasting their time when the put the SC on the 3.8! Keep at it. I'm never going to turn 10-11's with a stock block 5.0 like the Mustangs can either but it's already more fun to drive. I love those kindof questions.

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

[email protected] (engine/trans is stock)

To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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Amazing, I guess Ford was wasting their time when the put the SC on the 3.8! Keep at it. I'm never going to turn 10-11's with a stock block 5.0 like the Mustangs can either but it's already more fun to drive. I love those kindof questions.

Brad

At the time the SC's came out, there wasn't really any aftermarket for the 3.8 dude. Now, those SC's can be set up to run 10's and 11's. Maybe I was exagerating about alot of 3.8 Mustangs turning 12's without a blower or nitrous, but I think there are a few, but I'll have to check up and let you know. I do know there are several well into the 13's.

Hell though, it can happen, look at the 3.8's in the GM's. Look at the 3.8's in the 1980's Buick Grand Nationals.

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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BlakTbird96 View Post
At the time the SC's came out, there wasn't really any aftermarket for the 3.8 dude. Maybe I was exagerating about alot of 3.8 Mustangs turning 12's without a blower or nitrous, but I think there are a few, but I'll have to check up and let you know. I do know there are several well into the 13's.

Hell though, it can happen, look at the 3.8's in the GM's. Look at the 3.8's in the 1980's Buick Grand Nationals.
You do realize I was being fascitious in the 1st line, right? I think the 3.8 does not get it's due recognition and am glad to see you doing this. Still question the cam. That's a major change in lift. What rockers, lifters, and springs are you going to use. Pushrods will need to be fit, you can't just use stock as the base circle of the cam will have to have been changed for the lift. Not a major issue just something to pay attention to. PTV will definitely need to be checked and compensated for.

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradone View Post
. What rockers, lifters, and springs are you going to use. Pushrods will need to be fit, you can't just use stock as the base circle of the cam will have to have been changed for the lift. Not a major issue just something to pay attention to. PTV will definitely need to be checked and compensated for.

Brad
According to Tom, I shouldn't have to change any of that. I don't think he's full of shlt. He's a well known person and several from here, V6power, 3.8 Mustang, have all gave him good reviews and feedback. I too though, am worried about what will happen if for some reason, I do need to change this stuff. When I go to take it all down, I won't be near my home, it'll be at a mod meet maybe. If I do need new lifters, rockers, pushrods, I guess I'm screwed. He said there is no way to know for sure until it's all torn down.

I may have to spend a couple nights out of town if I need to order this stuff afterwards.

I'm surprised no other V6'rs have chimed in here yet, ahem...thomas, rancherlee, etc, where are you guys at?

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BlakTbird96 View Post
According to Tom, I shouldn't have to change any of that. I don't think he's full of shlt. He's a well known person and several from here, V6power, 3.8 Mustang, have all gave him good reviews and feedback. I too though, am worried about what will happen if for some reason, I do need to change this stuff. When I go to take it all down, I won't be near my home, it'll be at a mod meet maybe. If I do need new lifters, rockers, pushrods, I guess I'm screwed. He said there is no way to know for sure until it's all torn down.

I may have to spend a couple nights out of town if I need to order this stuff afterwards.

I'm surprised no other V6'rs have chimed in here yet, ahem...thomas, rancherlee, etc, where are you guys at?
My original response was "I wish you luck" but then I went back and re-read this thread from the beginning. There are some things here that really don't jive with reality in reference the recommendations you have received. I'll break it down a little. He says you'll be able to use all your stock original valve train parts on this new "much" higher lift cam. Then he tells you:

First he said it's a .54/.54, then he says its a .54-.545w/1.7's and .554 w/1.73's I don't know what the phuk this means. YIKES!!!

Here are the real numbers:

1st: .540 at 1.6RR = .574 at 1.7RR = .584 at 1.73RR

This would be roller rockers on the 1.7 and 1.73's. I would not even consider a high performance cam install without roller rockers. If the cam was anywhere "remotely" designed the rocker ratio would be specified and accounted for in the design. What type of rockers are your ported and polished heads set up for, pedestal, 3/8", or 7/16" studs? If they are stud mounts you are going to need guideplates and hardened pushrods, and the appropriate rockers, in the ratio designated by the cam manufacturer.

I have seen nothing mentioned of springs. Their are many dimensions involved in spring choice. If you had your heads professionally ported and polished the machine shop would have no doubt asked what kindof cam you were going to install to at least try and get you a spring that at the correct installed spring height would not give you coil bind. (I guarantee you the stock springs will bind at a .54 lift!) For your cam you need .575 or better (if you are using 1.7RR or up). This is only one part of the spring equation. They have to be the correct diameter to not bind with the rockers you have chosen. Assuming that is the case and all is fine then we need to look at spring pressures. To little (stock) will not hold the lifter in contact with the cam on the ramps (costs power and wear). Too much spring pressure will put undo pressure on the cam creating flex and vibration of the cam core (probably SADI core) which will be transfered through the whole valve train (costs power and wear). Quality cam manufacturers will spec the springs either by part # or minimum seat pressure, maximum open pressure, and lbs per inch spring rate. They know the profile of their cam lobe and how much pressure necessary to hold the lifter on the ramp. They want no more than necessary because it causes undo wear and power. Many buyers just ignore this and think more pressure is better and then wonder why the manufacturer won't warranty their cam. YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN NONE OF THIS INFORMATION!

Lifters: That's a crapshoot when the cam manufacturer does not spec. I would think at minimum new FMR stock lifters. Minimum.

Pushrods: Besides having to have the right type (ie. pedestal mount rocker-standard, stud mount rocker with guideplate-hardened) they have to be the right length. You had your heads ported and polished. I would assume they were milled also to straighten. Affects pushrod length. To get the increased lift on the cam either the base circle will have been shrunk (requires longer pushrod) or a larger lobe was used with increased base circle requiring a shorter pushrod. If the pushrod is the wrong length you will get a very wide contact patch on one side of the valve tip or the other, costing you lift, friction, and excessive valve guide wear.

I am not trying to bust your chops, I am trying to get you to stop and think. The camshaft is the heartbeat of your engine. Everything connected withit needs to be right for it to function optimally. I am also trying to give the wrong cam the best chance at perfoming as best it can so others are not turned off by the swap. Not everybody needs a V8 to have fun! To me the fun is feeling the results to every change and knowing I did it!

Now I'll wish you best of luck
Brad

and we haven't even talked about degreeing the cam

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

[email protected] (engine/trans is stock)

To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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I actually had the specs confused on this cam I bought. The specs are:

212/218 duration @ .050 lift
.554/.554 lift (W/1.73 stock rocker arm ratio)
110 lobe separation
106 IC (4 degrees of advance)


Factory cams are:

184int/202exh (@ .050" lift).
.424/.448" valve lift.
110 Lobe sep,
105 Intake c/l

I know I need new springs, which the machine shop is going to take care of once I give them the specs on the cam. I'm a little confused, because so far, you seem to be the only one telling me this cam is the wrong one for my car and didn't you even say your no cam expert? I don't mean to be rude I just really wish some other V6 folks would chime in here but for some reason they wont, even though all of them are probably reading and keeping up with this thread, yet none of them want to come up front and discuss. Where are you guys at? Just type in here what ya'll are saying to yourselves as you read these posts!

I may create a thread over at 3.8 Mustang and see what they all think. Thanks for your concerns though, I appreciate your advice, but I think I need some other opinions to help establish my own opinions.

Bradone, please feel free to go over to supersixmotorsports.com and ask Tom Y whats going on if you feel this is definantly the wrong cam.

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakTbird96 View Post
I actually had the specs confused on this cam I bought. The specs are:

212/218 duration @ .050 lift
.554/.554 lift (W/1.73 stock rocker arm ratio)
110 lobe separation
106 IC (4 degrees of advance)


Factory cams are:

184int/202exh (@ .050" lift).
.424/.448" valve lift.
110 Lobe sep,
105 Intake c/l

I know I need new springs, which the machine shop is going to take care of once I give them the specs on the cam. I'm a little confused, because so far, you seem to be the only one telling me this cam is the wrong one for my car and didn't you even say your no cam expert? I don't mean to be rude I just really wish some other V6 folks would chime in here but for some reason they wont, even though all of them are probably reading and keeping up with this thread, yet none of them want to come up front and discuss. Where are you guys at? Just type in here what ya'll are saying to yourselves as you read these posts!

I may create a thread over at 3.8 Mustang and see what they all think. Thanks for your concerns though, I appreciate your advice, but I think I need some other opinions to help establish my own opinions.

Bradone, please feel free to go over to supersixmotorsports.com and ask Tom Y whats going on if you feel this is definantly the wrong cam.

I agree. There are not enough specs on the cams at the site to calculate out correctly though so all I can do is rough estimates. I am not about to get in a pissing contest with someone running an obviously successful company for Mustang performance. If you can find someone running a Mustang within a 100lbs of your Tbird and you, and then find out how he is geared/stalled, etc. that would be great. The billet cam is the best. For what you are paying for it though you could have gotten a true cnc ground billet cam designed exactly to the weight of your car, the cross section and flows of your head (as long as you get the #'s), gears, ,transmission, converter, intake system, exhaust system and most of all, what is important to "you" in performance, by anyone of three designers I can think of. I am no guru but as near as I can figure from the limited info, the cam you are buying is still going to be low in the HP curve until around 3000rpm and then it is going to rip, probably increasing hp 50% in that 1000 rpm span up to 4000. Torque curve should be very flat which is great. These are the crudest of calulations but it was what I started off with years ago. Put it together with a 3000rpm stall and you may very well may love it. I should not have been so rude. It might be exactly what you want. I, on the other hand, want response off a twitch on the pedal and on a heavyweight you have to make a few changes compared to a lightweight like the Mustang. Still love to see what your doing. Good old fashioned run what you brung hot rodding!

Brad

ps. I have changed cams more than once getting where I wanted. I have to confess, once changed back to a peaky little prick of a cam because I just loved the rip and the look on peoples faces when it finally got to the curve and took off. Was often accused on that little motor of holding back. Wasn't so, just had to wait but it was just to cool when it hit. Saved the hell out of tires to.

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

[email protected] (engine/trans is stock)

To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 06:02 PM
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actually, there are quite a few guys running 13's NA on stock blocks (no strokes or compression hikes) and a few running 12's. a couple of guys even running 10's on stock blocks with power adders, if you can imagine that. Not to knock the 5.0, but it is a weak block. Everyone knows it. No use in making it something it's not. The v6 in general is just a stronger block, due mainly to the fact that it is shorter in length, thus making it twist less at high power levels. The opposite corners of the block will literally twist, this is why the 5.0 block splits in the same place...every time.

The m90 is small for a v6. Why they even make a kit for the v8 I dont know. Its a small blower that gives a nice kick to a stock, from the factory, car.

3.8mustang is for drama seeking noobies. Go to V6Power.net You wont get any flack from the v8 guys like this place does, and you'll get a lot more tech info and cold hard factual information that has been proven, rather than someone who knows everything about 5.0's applying it to your car.

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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 06:47 PM
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i say slide that bump stick in with new pushrods lifters and rockers. then try it out from specs it sounds like a smooth idling emissions legal cam that will not kill torque too much. Cmon now Git RRR done!

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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 11:02 PM
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i say slide that bump stick in with new pushrods lifters and rockers. then try it out from specs it sounds like a smooth idling emissions legal cam that will not kill torque too much. Cmon now Git RRR done!
There ya go! Prescription complete (except springs).

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

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To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 11:05 PM
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actually, there are quite a few guys running 13's NA on stock blocks (no strokes or compression hikes) and a few running 12's. a couple of guys even running 10's on stock blocks with power adders, if you can imagine that.
-Thomas
Are these TBirds? Man, you have to get them to list here! That's polishing the "turd"!

Brad

93 5.0 Thunderbird LX - Suspension rebuilt - poly , Solid rubber mm's, Tokico Blues, SCPP 3.5" CAI, True Duals (Pypes Bullits MVR200RA, Magnaflow Resonators 14416), FRPP case & 3.73 gears, Dynatech MMC driveshaft, Walbro 255lph, 3G 130 amp Alt, MAC 1 5/8" Long Tubes, Tru Cool (28k), Cervini hood, LC-1, QH, '95 Cobra J4J1 PCM, 88mm VMP Slot Blade MAF, '97 TBird Electric Fan, PBR calipers, 24lb EV6 Bosch 4 Jet Injectors

[email protected] (engine/trans is stock)

To Be Installed: WRGearset (FRPP) AOD w/Art Carr VB (transbrake/electric OD_non-lockup), Ultimate Converter Concepts 9.5" 4100, Hurst V-Matic 2, Camshaft Innovations "Custom" cam & "TEA" prepped TW 190 FAC by Jay Allen, Holley Systemax II, 75mm TB, 275/50/15 MT D/R's,
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-18-2007, 11:10 PM
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i say slide that bump stick in with new pushrods lifters and rockers. then try it out from specs it sounds like a smooth idling emissions legal cam that will not kill torque too much. Cmon now Git RRR done!
I'm pretty sure .520 lift is the limit for stock springs on an SC motor. Can't imagine an NA 3.8 would allow more. While I don't really think the cam is all that agressive, I do agree with everything else that Brad said in this post.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=23

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