Running engine to a stall, then crank wont start, also idle stall - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 10-20-2013, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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Running engine to a stall, then crank wont start, also idle stall

Happens occasionally. while driving car will stall [ at lower speeds,turns] then it goes back to the "crank wont start" problem.

Car eventually will turn over, but sometimes once it starts it immediately stalls this is new

Talked to a girl at auto-zone said it was my mass air flow sensor easy fix but costs 100$

Her reasoning was [ from her own experience similar stalling car problem] I had my car running then unplugged said Mass airflow sensor and nothing changed in how my engine sounded, her opinion was unplugging it should make engine run rougher.

This again was from her own experience, she changed the part and no longer had stalling problems.

I recently changed out the ignition control module and didnt let them heat it up and test the new part at the store. will see how it runs.

Everything on my previous "crank but wont start" problem here > http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=144049&page=2

Here is the MAF testing procedure, but i do not have the "wire piercing probe" nor do any auto-zone/ o'rileys sell it

Last edited by blinky99; 10-20-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 10-21-2013, 02:27 PM
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I bought a wire piercing probe myself at Radio shack a couple of years back, but, I can't seem to find it on their website now - It was around $15 for leads with a variety of clips. They look like the Fluke AC89's (and are a lot cheaper)

I'm sorting my own electrical oddities with my car right now - and I ended up picking up an PCM breakout box on eBay to try and figure it out (no piercing, and I can have a multimeter hooked up while driving the car still to see what is really happening)

I'm reasonably sure the MAF is "on the go" but, want to make 100% sure before shelling out the $$, and I'm not blindly replacing parts in case its something like the IAC valve.
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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 10-21-2013, 08:21 PM
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I use paperclips, or T-pins ( available at sewing stores ) for wire probing.

If you Un-plug the MAF sensor, the PCM will insert its own values, like most other sensors, when it sees there is a problem, it will calculate the load based on other sensors inputs. So if your car runs better with the MAF un-plugged, it may be a problem with the MAF sensor.

Not sure id trust a girl at autozones advice .. she had the exact same car as you ?? Bottom line they are parts salesmen, they are not qualified to diagnose problems or give advice.
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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 10-21-2013, 11:22 PM
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Not sure id trust a girl at autozones advice .. she had the exact same car as you ?? Bottom line they are parts salesmen, they are not qualified to diagnose problems or give advice.
This is true. As a parts salesman I give many options as to what the problem may be while also telling the customer that I am not diagnosing their issue, but rather telling you what could be. I work with many people who are not as knowledgable as I am, and I don't consider myself to be an expert by any means. This site puts me to shame on a near constant basis.

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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 10-24-2013, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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I use paperclips, or T-pins ( available at sewing stores ) for wire probing.

If you Un-plug the MAF sensor, the PCM will insert its own values, like most other sensors, when it sees there is a problem, it will calculate the load based on other sensors inputs. So if your car runs better with the MAF un-plugged, it may be a problem with the MAF sensor.

Not sure id trust a girl at autozones advice .. she had the exact same car as you ?? Bottom line they are parts salesmen, they are not qualified to diagnose problems or give advice.
so if car runs same with or with out MAF plugged in then what?
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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 10-31-2013, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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changed fuel filter, gas inside looked dirty. and air filter.

-Tested w a"snap on" code reader it was called and it said everything was in range.

tested fuel pressure at schrader valve read 40 psi at first prime, 30 with engine on at idle,and 30psi w acceleration. guy at shop said psi should go up w/ acceleration leading him to believe it's a bad fuel pump $350 to fix

is fuel pressure regulator independent of the pump? One article says stall at idle, regulator may be culprit. Which is when the stall most often occurs, idle or slowing at a red light...

Last edited by blinky99; 10-31-2013 at 12:43 PM.
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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 10-31-2013, 07:07 PM
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By all means, try running the car with the MAF unplugged.

Like someone already said, if it runs better you've found your problem.
If you still have the same problem, don't spend $100 on something you don't need!
(I did the SAME thing before I found this forum, let a friend of a friend swap it for me, he kept the original MAF - my car still had the same problem and I was out $100 and the original, good MAF)

EDIT: Did the 1995 3.8L cars run the MAF system like the 1995 4.6L equipped cars? I'm not even sure!

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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-01-2013, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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By all means, try running the car with the MAF unplugged.

Like someone already said, if it runs better you've found your problem.
If you still have the same problem, don't spend $100 on something you don't need!
(I did the SAME thing before I found this forum, let a friend of a friend swap it for me, he kept the original MAF - my car still had the same problem and I was out $100 and the original, good MAF)

EDIT: Did the 1995 3.8L cars run the MAF system like the 1995 4.6L equipped cars? I'm not even sure!

ive already tried running car w/o MAF plugged in and the engine sounds the same, so no idea. This was just at idle in my drive way though,not on the roads, is that what should do?

Im gonna try and find a better heat sink for the ignition control module
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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-01-2013, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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Happened three times today, hooked upthe spark plug tester to distributor and it stalled while it was on. Spark cut off, three times in the parking lot.

Also seems to want to stall more frequently after long drives, and during turns and slow speed/idle at stop lights.

is this a fuel pump matter or the ignition control module not sending a signal to the PIP in the distributor
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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-01-2013, 03:00 PM
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is this a fuel pump matter
Could be. Sounds similar to a problem I had years ago on an another car before the pump finally died.

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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-01-2013, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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Could be. Sounds similar to a problem I had years ago on an another car before the pump finally died.

Joe
what symptoms did you have? was it a t-bird too? no ICm problems?

But would the fuel pump cause the spark to go dead/stall the car as i experienced today.

Car would start run a bit then stall at low idle, while i had the spark plug tester on. Then strt right back up then die 3-4 times in a row at idle. But it also dies driving.

For even put out a extended warranty on the ICM >http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/TF...Extensionf.pdf

Fuel pump is a 350$ fix and according to PSI readings it's functioning at 1st prime [40PSI]and at idle engine on [30pspi] , but PSI doesnt increase w/ acceleration of gas pedal in park. Normal? Also the diagnostic tests keep going back to the ICM being at fault.when i get a ""crank wont start condition" but now it's also a frequent stall problem

Should i hook a extender cable up to monitor fuel PSI while driving?
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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-01-2013, 05:47 PM
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My old car was a Tempo.

This thing had an idle problem apparently when the pump started acting up. I don't think it had any spark problems though. From what I remember I was told, the pump would slow the gas down, then the computer would compensate with more gas almost to the point of flooding and stalling. It just got worse over time until it just quit all together. It was loud too as time went on.

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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-01-2013, 11:30 PM Thread Starter
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but it wont stall at idle cold, only after engine is hot
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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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update bought some bars stop leak tablets added 6 to warm water, and followed directions

no more leak/over heating, constant warm air thus far.

what i used
http://barsproducts.com/catalog/view...ak-tablets-hdc

Two questions
now that i've driven it a bit and it's sealed, should i flush it to get any excess material out so as to not damage/plug radiator?
What happens if leak returns?do another application as the directions state?

Last edited by blinky99; 11-07-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 06:10 PM
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update bought some bars stop leak tablets added 6 to warm water, and followed directions

no more leak/over heating, constant warm air thus far.

what i used
http://barsproducts.com/catalog/view...ak-tablets-hdc

Two questions
now that i've driven it a bit and it's sealed, should i flush it to get any excess material out so as to not damage/plug radiator?
What happens if leak returns?do another application as the directions state?
It has been my experience..If you're relying on one of these stop-leak products to "fill" a cracked head gasket..You're living on borrowed time..

In other words..Don't drive the car too far from home unless you can afford to foot a tow bill..

If you did any kind of research before you bought your 3.8L powered MN12..You would already know about the head gasket issues though..

So..Just leave the "stop-leak" product alone..Don't try flushing out your coolant system now..

Make sure to keep your coolant level between the "hot" and "cold" mark on your overflow tank..Check it before, and after every drive..

Good luck buddy!



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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 06:43 PM
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Yeah that junk clogs up everywhere possible, the engine block, radiator, heater core, etc .. just ask anybody who works at an engine machine shop what they think about it.

But yeah .. im lost, did you do a leakdown / compression test first ?
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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It has been my experience..If you're relying on one of these stop-leak products to "fill" a cracked head gasket..You're living on borrowed time..

In other words..Don't drive the car too far from home unless you can afford to foot a tow bill..

If you did any kind of research before you bought your 3.8L powered MN12..You would already know about the head gasket issues though..

So..Just leave the "stop-leak" product alone..Don't try flushing out your coolant system now..

Make sure to keep your coolant level between the "hot" and "cold" mark on your overflow tank..Check it before, and after every drive..

Good luck buddy!



Rayo..
i didnt buy it i got it for free when my grandma passed. I never had a cracked head gasket symptom, every test i did was negative. The dye that turns colors to check for hydro carbons at the radiator, leaving the radiator cap off and letting car run to see if the coolant explodes out, no smoke from tail pipe, oil was fine.

it was stop leak or 500-600 to fix the timing cover gasket. which i didnt feel like investing in this money pit of cari do have tow insurance for my car though.

not to mention i still have the idle random stall wont start symptom, that basically makes it unsafe to drive long distances.

=If it buys me a month im happy, if it dies then i sell it for junk for 300$ and start looking for anew car.

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Yeah that junk clogs up everywhere possible, the engine block, radiator, heater core, etc .. just ask anybody who works at an engine machine shop what they think about it.

But yeah .. im lost, did you do a leakdown / compression test first ?

i had a compression test [ for the leak do you mean?] done and guy said it was the timing cover gasket.

SO basically cars fukd now eH?

Last edited by blinky99; 11-07-2013 at 07:21 PM.
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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 10:33 PM
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i had a compression test [ for the leak do you mean?] done and guy said it was the timing cover gasket.

SO basically cars fukd now eH?
Not necessarily, it just diminishes your cooling capacity. I have also seen it clog up thermostats and other parts of the system that can lead to further issues.

Timing cover gasket isnt such a huge job, not nearly as bad as head gaskets. Better to fix it because coolant entering your oil system can cause bearing failure on the lower end. Its a band aid fix for a bigger problem. Usually when I see this stuff used to repair a head gasket, it works great for the first few months and then comes back - but youre looking at cylinder combusion pressures working against it instead of coolant pressure.
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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Not necessarily, it just diminishes your cooling capacity. I have also seen it clog up thermostats and other parts of the system that can lead to further issues.

Timing cover gasket isnt such a huge job, not nearly as bad as head gaskets. Better to fix it because coolant entering your oil system can cause bearing failure on the lower end. Its a band aid fix for a bigger problem. Usually when I see this stuff used to repair a head gasket, it works great for the first few months and then comes back - but youre looking at cylinder combusion pressures working against it instead of coolant pressure.

so is it to late to do the timing cover gasket repair? winters coming and i dont have time/know how/tools/ spare car to do it myself

cars a 95' w 84k on it all original, otherwise aside from the stalling issue, in ok condition

anything else i should do to prevent the things you said will happen, from happening as preventative? How long of a baind aid month/months?
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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 10:38 PM
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so is it to late to do the timing cover gasket repair? winters coming and i dont have time/know how/tools/ spare car to do it myself

cars a 95' w 84k on it all original, otherwise aside from the stalling issue, in ok condition
No its not too late. Only special tool you would need is to remove / install the harmonic balancer and power steering pump pulley. Water pump and timing cover shouldnt be too bad - just make sure you get that little hex bolt behind the oil pump and get a new gasket kit, clean mating surfaces very well. Mark the indexed position of the distributor and rotor for re-assembly.
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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
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No its not too late. Only special tool you would need is to remove / install the harmonic balancer and power steering pump pulley. Water pump and timing cover shouldnt be too bad - just make sure you get that little hex bolt behind the oil pump and get a new gasket kit, clean mating surfaces very well. Mark the indexed position of the distributor and rotor for re-assembly.
what brand gasket would you recommend, felpro? read some ppl were disappointed with hem. any online step by step guides?

how would i get out all the bars leak tab gunk out to prevent it causing problems down the road?

do you have any ideas on whats causing the stalling/"crank wont start" issue as i've described it?

ty btw
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 11:18 PM
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what brand gasket would you recommend, felpro? read some ppl were disappointed with hem. any online step by step guides?

how would i get out all the bars leak tab gunk out to prevent it causing problems down the road?

do you have any ideas on whats causing the stalling/"crank wont start" issue as i've described it?

ty btw
Fel pro is OK .. ive used it many times and never really had a problem. I dont like the metal gasket design, it says not to use RTV on it, but I do anyways. The kit comes with a new seal, I would replace that and the oil pump seal also while youre at it since it all comes in the kit.

I dont know of any visual guides .. stop by my house in the next couple weeks with a video camera - I have a new automotive apprentice I am training and we have a 95 SC with a broken harmonic balancer coming up soon - the timing cover is going to come off to get the broken part of the hub ring off the crankshaft end, it broke right at the front seal.

No way to get all of the gunk out .. take your engine block to a machine shop and they may not be able to get it out completely but thats the best way for the block. Radiator would probably need to be replaced if it gets too clogged, I dont know of many shops flushing them anymore. Wouldnt worry too much if you arent overheating anymore or it doesnt get too hot in the summer.

Stalling .. I would be looking at running more diagnostics if its that consistant. If you have a scanner that will put the EEC-IV into the Wiggle test mode you can tap or wiggle wires to see if anything fails and causees the stall. Otherwise check out the IAC or TPS if there are any dropouts in voltage signal, debris, or the IAC is working correctly. Hard to say without seeing the car here in person I could test everything or swap parts around - this can be a very easy or tricky fault to chase down. Ive dealt with a couple different cars that had a stalling issue I just couldnt figure out, even went off to another mechanic and then to the dealership who couldnt figure it out still. Nice thing about Tbirds is that I have a whole storage shed full of spare parts I can swap out to test but usually im doing the basic compression / fuel / air / spark, check EEC functions, before I start throwing parts at it.
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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-07-2013, 11:26 PM Thread Starter
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Fel pro is OK .. ive used it many times and never really had a problem. I dont like the metal gasket design, it says not to use RTV on it, but I do anyways. The kit comes with a new seal, I would replace that and the oil pump seal also while youre at it since it all comes in the kit.

.
can't drive no car ha

temp is actually more steady and doesnt get in to the red at all after adding the stuff, for now. Hot air is constant after it gets up to temp instead of hot/cold/hot cold.

all tests we do go back to the ignition control module, maybe re read some of my postings in this thread, you may have a different idea? it'd be appreciated.

stalling is only consistent on long drives. Short drives to get groceries it doesn't happen, nor from a cold start. Which leads me to believe the ICM is over heating [which it's known to due to poor design/placement] and causing a "stall/crank wont start" Had a "snap on" diagnostic test done and no codes were thrown.
ICM over heats after i drive a long distance. car sits while im in the gym, Hour later i start, it stalls then either continues to start/stall at idle or not start for a while. it's the damnedest thing

update
-checked overflow tank this morning and yacoolant is murky brown sludgy added to cold fill line, radiator itself i couldn't see any coolant in.

Last edited by blinky99; 11-08-2013 at 10:47 AM.
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2013, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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seem to be getting warm air going a lot faster than i use to while driving is this normal?
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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2013, 11:32 PM
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seem to be getting warm air going a lot faster than i use to while driving is this normal?
Depends on how long are we talking about to warm up ? I would be keeping an eye on the coolant temp gauge.

Yeah if youre pinpointing it back to the ICM .. I have already suggested removing the wire harness connector leads from both ends of all sources of power, ground, signals .. and checking the wiring between. If you have a decent multimeter like the Fluke, you can use the Diode check function which sends power through the signal and determines how much aperage is required. The ICM itself could be overheating, or it could have bad wiring between.
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-11-2013, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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Depends on how long are we talking about to warm up ? I would be keeping an eye on the coolant temp gauge.
The engine runs between normal temp and a little bit under normal temp as of now.


- Before my coolant leak it'd take 10 min or so to get warm air while driving, now its around 5-7 min for warm air after driving, is what i mean.

The gauge in the dash is what you mean by coolant temp gauge right?

We bought Xbox heat sink and are going to add it to my ICM to help with the heating issues.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-11-2013, 02:37 PM
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The gauge in the dash is what you mean by coolant temp gauge right?

We bought Xbox heat sink and are going to add it to my ICM to help with the heating issues.
Sounds about normal .. if it were blowing hot air really quickly after startup, I would worry. A blown HG will make your temp gauge shoot up to the red a couple minutes after startup. But if the temp gauge is reading about normal, it should be fine. Yeah I meant the gauge in the dash.

I didnt know Microsoft made heat sink compound .. I normally use Artic Silver compound. Although that has never been able to fix my other 2 Xbox ring of death, Ive just ended up buying a newer one to replace it.
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-11-2013, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds about normal .. if it were blowing hot air really quickly after startup, I would worry. A blown HG will make your temp gauge shoot up to the red a couple minutes after startup. But if the temp gauge is reading about normal, it should be fine. Yeah I meant the gauge in the dash.

I didnt know Microsoft made heat sink compound .. I normally use Artic Silver compound. Although that has never been able to fix my other 2 Xbox ring of death, Ive just ended up buying a newer one to replace it.
is this a thermal paste i shuold buy for my tbird ICM, i dont have a xbox just bought the part separately for my ICM.

you mentioned the leak stop clogging my thermostat/radiator? what should i watch for if that happens?
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-11-2013, 06:04 PM
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can't drive no car ha

temp is actually more steady and doesnt get in to the red at all after adding the stuff, for now. Hot air is constant after it gets up to temp instead of hot/cold/hot cold.

all tests we do go back to the ignition control module, maybe re read some of my postings in this thread, you may have a different idea? it'd be appreciated.

stalling is only consistent on long drives. Short drives to get groceries it doesn't happen, nor from a cold start. Which leads me to believe the ICM is over heating [which it's known to due to poor design/placement] and causing a "stall/crank wont start" Had a "snap on" diagnostic test done and no codes were thrown.
ICM over heats after i drive a long distance. car sits while im in the gym, Hour later i start, it stalls then either continues to start/stall at idle or not start for a while. it's the damnedest thing

update
-checked overflow tank this morning and yacoolant is murky brown sludgy added to cold fill line, radiator itself i couldn't see any coolant in.
- You had hot / cold / hot / cold air from the heater? Bad sign. I would just let the stop leak ride for now and see what happens.

- This talk of 12V dropping to 6V or 8V while the car is running sounds pretty serious to me. Have you taken a look at your ignition switch? It could be falling apart. Have you tested your battery and alternator? You have mentioned a lot of cranking and failing to start - has it been running down?

- Another very possible problem is a bad ground to the EEC. That will prevent proper fuel pump operation (note I did not say all fuel pump operation) and also cut your spark. Check the ground.

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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-11-2013, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by S_Mazza View Post
- You had hot / cold / hot / cold air from the heater? Bad sign. I would just let the stop leak ride for now and see what happens.

- This talk of 12V dropping to 6V or 8V while the car is running sounds pretty serious to me. Have you taken a look at your ignition switch? It could be falling apart. Have you tested your battery and alternator? You have mentioned a lot of cranking and failing to start - has it been running down?

- Another very possible problem is a bad ground to the EEC. That will prevent proper fuel pump operation (note I did not say all fuel pump operation) and also cut your spark. Check the ground.

i cleaned the battery terminals, and the ground to battery a bit ago quite dirty. Battery seems to almost die when i sit and listen to music in the car during breaks at work [10-15 min] never did this in the summer btw, but only recently started with the cold weather.

According to my dad the hot/cold/ hot cold air was due to coolant running low as i had a leak at the time and it would cycle same with the engine temps hot/norm/hot/norm based on if i was low on coolant or not.

as of now im seeing how far the stop leak will take me, but the timing cover gasket will cost me 500-600 if i go that route.

Take the battery to the store and have them test it? other wise with a volt meter it reads 14 or whatever it is suppose to.

Dont even know where the ignition switch is. But when i get the "crank wont start" issue the battery eventually does run down and i end up needing a jump/battery is > 3 years old btw, not even sure how old exactly...
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