How can I get a 3.8 Tbird to go fast? - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-18-2003, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
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How can I get a 3.8 Tbird to go fast?

If anyone can help me, I'd appreciate it. I have a 1996 Ford Thunderbird 3.8. The car ran a 17.3 at the track before I added the K&N cone filter cold air setup and the dual exhaust and upgraded sparkplugs. I also ordered a performance module which should be here within a week. I don't know what it will run now but I doubt there will be a huge difference. I have heard of supersix motorsports which specailizes in power packs for these cars but they are very expensive. My car has approxamitly 67k miles on it. If i were too add an aftermarket supercharger on it, what kind should i add (psi) and would this harm the engine. I would like to get my car at least in the 15's range. If anyone has had any experience with the super six power packs, if anyone has an idea as to what type of supercharger would work on my car, and finally, if anyone has a performance module on their mn-12 and can let me know if they are any good or not, I would appreciate it. ...Sorry so long, but I'm new to this, lol. Thanks
Frank
1996 Ford Tbird 3.8
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-18-2003, 09:17 PM
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Welcome aboard and sorry about the not-so-warm welcome

The cheapest way to add power right now is to get a ASP 25% underdrive pulley, its made for the 94-98 mustang but bolts directly on our engine. Its been dyno tested for a 6-7rwhp gain and 4-5rwtq gain. It runs around 70-80$ on Ebay, you will also need a 96" long drive belt for it, the stock one is 98.5" and will be too loose with the underdrive. I dropped .2 in the 1/4mile by adding the underdrive pulley, about the best bang for the buck.

so far I am the only one that had added an aftermarket supercharger to there car and it isn't too difficult if you can customise a few things. You will need to relocate the DIS, modify the A/C lines, and cut some sheetmetal(nothing too serious) to bolt the vortech kit in the t-bird (its the 94-98 mustang kit). I haven't gotten any track/dyno testing done yet as I'm still working a few bugs out of it.

Supersix motorsports does do some good work for the 3.8L stuff but they also have the highest prices by far. Other places to look are rpm-mustang.com and moranav6.com

v6power.net is also a great site with alot of 3.8L information (since our engine is the same 3.8L used in the 94-99 mustang and all there performance stuff applies)
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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-18-2003, 11:12 PM
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I do believe it's www.moranav6RACING.com rancher

Rancher pretty much gave you some good pointers. at the top of this 3.8L forum there is a sticky thread made my rancher about how to add power to the 3.8L. I'd suggest reading over that. Since you have a 96, you might consider doing the j-mod (go to the tech article link on the front page and then go into the tranny section to read about it) and you'll preserve the life of your tranny and drop your times a decent amount.

What "performance chip module" did you get? if it's one from a generic store or car part website they are no good. go to www.apten-us.com and contact Brian Herron about a good chip. They are great with these cars and he was taught by a ford engineer, justly named "The Man", that actually designed some of the bird. "The Man" also wrote thsoe articles about the transmission.

Rancher was right, supersixmotorsports is expensive. Goto v6power.net and then to their For Sale forum and see if you can find some things there. There's usually some nice eprformance parts being sold. Right now there is a group purchase on cam shafts for super cheap so you might consider getting in on that.

Otherwise, I'd start out with the small things, cold air intake, plug wires, exhaust, apten chip, possibly some roller rockers, and then work up from there.

Hope this helps.

-Thomas

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What not-so-warm-welcome? The post has only been up for 2 hours!

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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-18-2003, 11:49 PM
 
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while a chip will help a stock car, i would wait untill some heavier mods are done to the car. there are flex's phenolic spacers which were actually dyno tested, also the prementioned tranny mod and underdrive pulley.

however, if you want to get into the 15s, this is basically what you will have to do..
(not all mods add power, but help maintain durability)

transmission cooler and tranny mod
underdrive pulley
flex's spacers
ported and polished intakes
ported and polished heads (with a 3 angle or 5 angle valve job, and maybe a milling to up compression slightly)
some stiffer valve springs (maybe use SC springs)
roller rockers
cam
ported exhaust manifolds or 96/97 shorty "headers"
larger mass air flow sensor (60 - 70 mm)
larger throttle body (60 or 65 mm)
2 1/4" true dual exhaust with either H or X pipe and mufflers of your choice
a torque converter with a stall between 2400 and 3000 (probably 2800 would be best.. depends on power curve)
3.73 or 4.10 gears w/ traclok in 8.8 housing
SC halfshafts
19# (at least) injectors and higher capacity fuel pump
dyno tune
some drag radials

there are things you can do to lighten your car, refer to the tech articles, because these cars are heavy and that hurts them. you can also do a splitport head and intake swap, or even use nitrous running a 50 or 75 shot. then of course you can do a superchager, but it would be a better idea to do all the other mods first, and as well turbochage the car, but there is no reference availble for that project as no one has done it yet. -greg
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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-18-2003, 11:56 PM
 
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P&P slitports from a 99+ mustang and a cam from RPM Mustang will get you significant gains. cost though is a littel over a grand if I remeber right, but should get you 60+ HP.
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 12:09 AM
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Welcome, Frank.

Getting a V6 to go fast is a serious commitment. It's definately not for everyone and can be a spiritual task. Your question is more easily answered if you provide us with your budget.

Here are the mods (for speed) that I would suggest for ANY T-Bird:

Higher gear ratio (3.73s are nice) and track-lock
8.8 differential or at least a girdle for the 7.5
Better tires
Get rid of the air silencer if you didn't yank it when you put your K&N in.

Pullies are good but they put a harder load on your alternator.

As far as engine mods, you are gonna need to commit some money. Also, save some for when your head gaskets give up. Also, your engine mounts will probably rupture sooner or later-- at that time you should replace them with solid rubber ones.

BTW, for the quick and easy, a 50 or 75 hp shot of nitrous.

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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
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I recently added a K&N cold air cone intake on it. It has dual exhaust from the pumpkin back, and upgraded sparkplugs (dont know if this really makes a difference) I also ordered a G-Box Performance Module from Next Level Performance which should be here within a week. Suggestions about the J-mod to the tryanny sound good. Can this be done at any transmission shop, and how much does it cost. My car is a daily driver for now. Once its paid off, I'll get another car and the Tbird will be my "fun" car. It has 67K on it so I'm not sure if a supercharger is a good idea or not, plus I'm trying to stay under $600. Rancherlee has a supercharger on his but I dont know the milage on it and whether or not if its a daily driver. The underdrive pulleys sound like a great bang for the money but I was told from someone else that these can break the crankshaft in the long run. Is this true, because if it is not true and underdrive pulley's DO NOT harm the crank, then this WILL be the next thing I get for it.

Thanks all,
96 Tbird 3.8
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 01:10 PM
 
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i have never heard of anything about underdrive pullies damaging the crankshaft... tons of people here have them, and the only problem related to the under drive pullies i heard of was when someone broke a bolt putting it on. the only thing the underdrive pullies can have a negative effect on is (unless you buy a whole set with extra pullies to replace these...) alternator and water pump.. but only problems i have heard dealt with the alternator and those were people running large sound systems. -greg
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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 01:11 PM
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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 02:34 PM
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I've never heard of damage to the crank either. I've never even heard it be theorized by people. I have an ASP crank pulley and it gave me a good get up and go.

I've never heard of a G-Box performance module. But most over the counter eprformance chips will actually hurt performance. Might as well try it out though. But honestly I wouldn't keep it, I'd get a chip from a company that knows what they're doing and makes chips for these cars for a livin like Apten or Dennis Reinhart.

-Thomas

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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 03:10 PM
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Frank, get some more track times with the mods you currently have so you can see what kind of performance you get with this mystery chip. The "performance" plugs are probably not doing anything good for you. The best plugs for these cars are the basic Autolites or Motorcraft plugs. If you have a chip programmed for it, you can run plugs with a colder temperature rating and a colder thermostat. This makes your engine run cooler and allows the chip to boost ignition timing.

Here are a few things that the Apten/Fordchip/Reinhart chip (all the same) will do that your current chip probably will not do:

--Increased tranny line pressure during shifts only (be weary of the chip that continuously raises line pressure-- it will ruin your tranny).
--Improved shift points
--Bumped redline
--Advanced timing
--Eliminate timing slump at launch
--Optimized air-fuel ratio
--Programming for colder plugs/thermostat
--Fuel cut for coasting (your car will actually slow down when you remove your foot from the gas).
--Improved torque converter schedule

and more...

The chip is custom ordered to suit your mods. It also improves drivability.

I need to ask again whether or not you pulled the air silencer when you installed your cold-air intake. It's the plastic elbow below your original filter location. If you haven't, pull all of the out to help your K&N pull in more fresh air.

The tranny mod is something you should research and do yourself. One of the things you will learn from cars is to never trust a shop to do things right. It's best you take the time, read the articles, gather the parts, and set aside a weekend to do it yourself.

PJ

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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 03:40 PM
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I'm sure you could find someone who's done it before up there be willing to help you out with the j-mod.
-Thomas

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
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Whats up all? I'm gonna go ahead and order the underdrive pulleys then. The K&N setup is the one from mn12performance, and its setup the way the directions said to. The G-box perfomance module I believe is a rather new item, which hasn't really been recognized which is probably why not many have heard of it. Oh well, what the heck, I'll just try it and if I dont like it, I'll take it off. Was only like $50.00 so it wouldnt be too much of a loss if i decided that I didnt want it. Heavier stuff......vortechs, etc, will probably have to wait til at least after christmas...................Hey.....maybe Santa will bring me big performance mods for christmas...lol
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Not to disilusion you, but I wouldn't install any "performance altering" piece of electronics that only costs $50. Do you have any more info on this gadget? A link, an ad, or an article, perhaps? This isn't one of those Ebay dohickies is it?

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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-19-2003, 09:18 PM
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how to get a 3.8 to go fast, ohh i know, push it off a cliff!! or spray the snot out of it. but either of thoes options would be a use once only option as it would ruin the car hmm.


no seriously these guys have good answers. a vortech on a splitport 99+ would work great.

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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2003, 09:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by PJ-4.2L
Not to disilusion you, but I wouldn't install any "performance altering" piece of electronics that only costs $50. Do you have any more info on this gadget? A link, an ad, or an article, perhaps? This isn't one of those Ebay dohickies is it?

PJ
http://nextlevelracing.com/stage1.htm

I think this is what he's talking about.

Don't waste your money.

Doug
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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2003, 09:57 AM
 
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Quote:
The G-Box was designed to compete with higher priced performance chips, modules and power programmers such as the Jet V-Force, SLP AT and Venom 400,



that says all you need to know about it right there.... lol -greg
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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2003, 10:28 AM
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How do you compete with other "performance chips" like those? They're all the same resistor...
-Thomas

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Doug was right. The link is www.nextlevelracing.com. Now, has anyone had any experience with this performance module? It is too late for me "not" to waste my money cause I already sent the check in. It is designed to compete with other modules like itself, but I just thought i would give it a try. I was looking in a summitt racing magazine and saw some modules very similar to it, but they were going for like $100 to start off. The G-Box looks like the same thing in summitt so I dunno. I'll give it a try, if I don't like it, I'll take it off. Has anyone in here had any experience with these G-Box modules from Next Level Performance or at least heard if they are any good or not?
Frank
96Tbird 3.8
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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2003, 11:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thomas
How do you compete with other "performance chips" like those? They're all the same resistor...
-Thomas
hence the......

Quote:

-greg
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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2003, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cool dude
Doug was right. The link is www.nextlevelracing.com. Now, has anyone had any experience with this performance module? It is too late for me "not" to waste my money cause I already sent the check in. It is designed to compete with other modules like itself, but I just thought i would give it a try. I was looking in a summitt racing magazine and saw some modules very similar to it, but they were going for like $100 to start off. The G-Box looks like the same thing in summitt so I dunno. I'll give it a try, if I don't like it, I'll take it off. Has anyone in here had any experience with these G-Box modules from Next Level Performance or at least heard if they are any good or not?
Frank
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I'd say go to the bank and cancel your check before Next Level gets it and cashes it. Those are are WASTES OF MONEY! If you really want what that "module" has to offer to go radio shack and buy a resistor for five cents, build a box around it, and stick wires into it. That's all that "module" is. They are ripping you off!
-Thomas

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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-22-2003, 10:17 AM
 
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How to make a 3.8 Tbird fast... Hmm.

4 letters...

JATO
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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-22-2003, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by brokenmachines_e2
How to make a 3.8 Tbird fast... Hmm.

4 letters...

JATO


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Jet Assitied Take Off
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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-22-2003, 02:53 PM
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ah hah. good idea.
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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-22-2003, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
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Well, the G-Box Modlule came in today. It wasn't what I expected, it is basically a little box that can fit in the palm of your hand with a few wires coming out each side. The entire thing was mailed to me in an envelope whereas I was expecting at least a taped up box, lol. Hard to believe it gives up to 15 more HP. Now I'm wandering if I should actually put it on. I dunno. I'll see what happens. At least it wasnt as bad as the time I bought a $5.oo "piggy back resistor" off of ebay. That thing was about the size of a toothpick, lol. That i never did put on, I was afraid it would fall down into some electrical component or something. Well, once I put it on, I'll let you all know what it's like.
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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-22-2003, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cool dude
Well, the G-Box Modlule came in today. It wasn't what I expected, it is basically a little box that can fit in the palm of your hand with a few wires coming out each side. The entire thing was mailed to me in an envelope whereas I was expecting at least a taped up box, lol. Hard to believe it gives up to 15 more HP. Now I'm wandering if I should actually put it on. I dunno. I'll see what happens. At least it wasnt as bad as the time I bought a $5.oo "piggy back resistor" off of ebay. That thing was about the size of a toothpick, lol. That i never did put on, I was afraid it would fall down into some electrical component or something. Well, once I put it on, I'll let you all know what it's like.
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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-22-2003, 10:53 PM
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I know, Thomas, seriously. Cool Dude, not to sound mean, but you got owned. That little box you're holding is the same thing as the $5 resistor. It just has a $45.00 box attached to it. Why don't you post the installation instructions and we will tell you exactly what it does.

Just live and learn, man.

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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-23-2003, 12:16 AM
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Hehe, I just e-mailed Next Level Performance and asked them what the thing does and how it does it. I tried to sound as stupid and interested as I could to see if he'd actually tell me what it is. I also asked for an open-box picture. Let's see what his BS response is.
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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-23-2003, 08:34 AM Thread Starter
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Okay...there are too many words on the directions and I do not have a scanner on my pc to display the whole thing so I am going to try to shorten up the directions for the G-Box, so maybe someone can tell me exactly what this thing will do (if it does anything)
Step1- turn off engine, remove key from ignition, remove negative battery terminal.
Step2- Locate Intake Air Temperature sensor or Mass Air Flow/IAT sensor
Step3-Locate sensor power wire and the IAT signal wire, with the key turned to accesory, measure the voltage coming from the sensor plug ports. Power wire should carry a 12 volt circuit. Take an ohm reading from the sensor ports (not the plug). Once proper wires are located, snip both wires at the back of the plug.
Step4-Plug the black wires from the G-box to the IAT signal wire which was just snipped. Plug the red wires from the G-box to the power wire of the sensor. If I spliced the connection, I should cover it with heat shrink to protect the bare wires.
Step5-Mount the unit wherever using double sided heat resistant tape.
Okay all, I hope this makes sense, i tryed to explain it as best as i could by shortening somethings up. Has anyone ever used something like this? What will this do?
I'm looking at the picture on the directions and it looks as the wire connecting the ECU and IAT is cut so the G-box and its wires will fit in between connecting the ECU and IAT.
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