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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Imput wanted

Looking for some intelligent input about what I'm looking at doing.

I'm looking at torque mainly, at 3000-3500 and HP at 5000 and more the redline to 6000 (a safety margin).
Orginally thought 4.2, SPI and 95 blower, but intake issue have nixed this idea. Now a 4.2 and 95 SC blower.

Idealized Specs:
Cam (274/262 .432)
10PSI
1.7 rockers
Apten heads
Forged/moly interal
Lightened crank


Do I need to have forged everything or is just pistons fine (want 350 HP/Torque and daily drivable, would like HP and wheels but....)? Plus I want to know is this a pipe dream?
Required:
Stroked and Roots blower

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 05:02 PM
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why is the intake idea making the choice for the 95 (I assume votech) blower out the window?

Ever thought about putting a mustang split-port intake on top of the 4.2l? it bolts right up. and the angle is close to that of the stock 95 intake.

To me it would take much more $$$ abd work to adapt the SC blower to the splitport heads and even make the SC blower flow well enough for serious power. I know magnum does a great job at it but at a huge cost.

Brad
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Bolting to the block I know is not a problem but getting the SC on the intake, is from what I've read. Thought was bolt pattern is but correct me if I'm wrong.

Roots/screw blower is the only option I will consider, but as to which one that I'm open to suggetions. MPII is what I'm looking at.

But to answer the question the orginal idea was to Frankenstien all FOMOCO parts together F150 Block/interals, SC blower, Mustang intake and take what is viewed as the worst engine out there and put down some serious power with basiclly Factory only parts. For a show or strip car this is probably ok but I want to be able to drive it every day and I want more reliability, is why the change.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 07:28 PM
 
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From what Ive read the stock 4.2 crank is good to about 400HP, but if your goin for major power it would probably be better to get everything done at first instead of having to tear it all apart again later.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-02-2005, 12:06 PM
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with a ported S type m90 it *could* be possible to reach 350rwhp, but it'd be much easier and way more efficient with an autorotor 1.7L supercharger. And if you're starting from scratch I'd rather spend the extra money on the autorotor than the MP S blower. You could make a custom lower intake to mate up to split-port heads, it would take some custom fabrication but its possible.

As far as I know Apten no longer makes the big valve heads, since Apten no longer exists, MD took it over and Brian Herron moved to Florida to work for SCT. You still have Morana, RPM, and Supersix as options though, and I'd go with RPM personally.

You'll need mroe than 10psi to reach 350rwhp, with the m90 you'd need about 18psi, with the autorotor about 14psi (more efficient blower).

For internals, I dont know if a 4.2 crank would hold upto the low end power of a roots blower at 350rwhp, but it is possible it would handle it. To my knowledge that kind of low end power hasnt been put to the 4.2 crank. But 428rwhp of twin turbos has been done in a split-port stang, and its taking it well so far. But turbos dont provide instant boost like a roots blower does.

For internals, I dont know of any really strong longer rods like the 4.2 uses, but you could get forged SC rods shot peened and polished, then get custom length forged pistons. I wouldnt use any kind of factory ford v6 pistons in a 350rwhp motor, too weka, even the sc pistons (which wouldnt work with a 4.2 crank anyway) the 4.2 pistons are unique to the 4.2 only so if youre looking for forged pistons they'll need to be made specifically for 4.2 height, depending on what rods you go with. I'd personally go with aftermarket rods and aftermarket pistons.

If you got 1.7 roller rockers for a 5.0 I believe they fit, but thats a lower ratio than what ours have stock (1.73) so you'd be losing performance there, unless you got a cam to make up for it. But if you get 1.73 or 1.8 roller rockers that would make a better improvement than the 1.7's would. And if you get 1.8's you can add lift, add a cam to that and you'll have a nice combo for a supercharged motor. You'd want to run the cam specs through whoever is doing your cam to make sure it matches 1.8 rockers, and personally Id look into a custom ground cam through Mik at RPM. The cam is what makes the motor IMO, it's all about specing the cam.

You've got some good ideas but just do your research, talk to Mik, he knows a lot about tuning the car through a cam and heads to get what you want out of it.

-Thomas

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
2003 SVT Focus: - SCT X3 tuner
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-02-2005, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks agian Thomas, as for research thats about all I can afford to do at the moment, with getting married an all. Orginally the goal was 300-350 but with the models saying ~400 I'm all for that.


So for interals:
Forged 4.2 crank if not billet, or have a Nitride (think this is the right thing) job done on it
either custom rod or custom pistons (How strong are the 4.2 rods; also whats the rod/piston ratio?)

Boost:
Want to run pump gas so what is max PSI (10-12 is what I'm thinking)?
Wide open to suggestions on different blowers.

Heads:
Would a big vavle be overkill what I'm looking at or exactly what I need? Wanting low end power.


The all Ford parts still apeal to me but this will be first to come.

Things to remember:
power form 2500/3000-5000/5500 RPM
red line at 6000
effiecent as possible/fesible
300 RWHP min
as much Torque as possible at 3000-3500

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
93 5.0 Tbird
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-02-2005, 08:32 PM
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the stock 4.2 rods are the same length as the 96+ 3.8, they're longer than the previous years had so this did make them a little stronger, but I'd never put the kind of pwoer you're looking for into them, thats asking for trouble.

If you're dead set on a 4.2 stroke with a roots blower deffinetely look into some kind of custom billet crank, or some kind of strengthening procedures, I believe nitride is correct. The 4.2 stroke doesnt really add power as much as it does torque, the hp gain is about 5 and the tq gain is about 20. In my opinion, if you've already got an efficient blower the 4.2 stroke isnt worth the risk of breaking the crank, I'd personally go with a 3.8 supercoupe forged crank for durability and reassurance.

I've got a friend here in town with a 95 supercoupe, with his old ported S blower he pushed about 18psi on pump gas, his new Autorotor 1.7L pushed about 14psi (still on pump gas) but does it much more efficiently and cooler than the m90 ever did, and gained tremendous power from doing so. The low end improved decently, top end has improved dramatically, being as the autorotor is twin screw (claimed to be more efficient than even a turbo application) and can spin higher while compressing air at a cooler rate than the m90. If you're looking to spin the motor past 6 grand you'll never do it with an m90, its not going to happen, they are heat monsters for one, and secondly you'll max out the rev limits of the m90 and it will destroy itself.

And if you want to go to 6krpm with stock ford parts you're going to end up with a hole in the side of your block, I'd never do that without forged h-beams, forged pistons, and a very good rotating assembly balance.

Also, if you want to go past 5krpm you'll want a better torque converter that wont balloon and explode. Contact dirtyd0g on this board and he'll set you up better than any aftermarket converter at a cheaper price. Seeing as youre wanting torque at 3000rpm I'd assume you've already contemplated a high stall converter.

That local friend I mentioned earlier still needs a dynotune, but estimates around 300rwhp on stock size valves with his own port job. Big valve heads are great, and will add a lot of power, especially in a forced induction application, but if you're looking to save costs you could do without them. But you could do this and keep your torque, you would deffinetely want your reground cam spec'd for the larger valves, and the pricise valve sizes as well. Like I said its all in the cam. A larger intake valve with lots of intake lift from a cam would be awesome on a twin screwed sc application with a high stall converter.

-Thomas

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-02-2005, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Well I'll toss the 3.8 over a 4.2 around, would save a butt load of cash if choose to go that route (espically if the power gains arnt worth the cash, and 20lbs anit worth a custom crank IMO).

As for driveline yeah already well aware need new everything (rebuilt bulletproof tranny, new D/S, 8.8 rear still thinking about gears dont know if want to go lower to save the tires or a 3.55 for acceleration, and halfshafts).

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
93 5.0 Tbird
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-03-2005, 08:15 PM
 
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If it where me I would go the S.C. parts route as far as you can. Block and crank, 351 forged rods and custom pistons. Now that the A.R. blower is out there should be some nicley set up m90 blowers for sale on the sccoa site. I was going to go to a 4.2 in my S.C. After some research I found out that an m90 will not really keep up with a 3.8 power peaks out in most cases at 5500 rpms. With that in mind why go to more cubes? The dream setup would be a S.C. block with a forged ( custom) 4.2 crank and an A.R. blower. Coy Miller told me and so did Dave Dalke that the biggest limiting H.P. factor on a S.C. is that a built S.C. Motor will suck an m90 blower harder than it can pump over 5600rpms. My motor will spin up to 6200 + rpms with forged internals, it quits making power at 5500 so whats the point.
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-03-2005, 08:25 PM
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yeah the v6 can rev high with forged and properly balanced internals, so why not make use of it and get a power adder that can breathe that high? In order to make good power from an m90 you need to overdrive it, but then if you rev it high overdriven it will max out. I think the m90 maxes out at 15,000rpm (blower speed) and Im unsure of the AR's but I know it is MUCH higher than that, so rev as much as you want as long as you're still making power.
-Thomas

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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-03-2005, 09:00 PM
 
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The really big advantage of the A.R. is that is makes power and boost, an easy18 lbs at very low rpms. So you dont have to turn it fast. The bonus is that it really dosent get as hot as an M90. So you get boost without the heat so it does not want to detonate a common problem with overdriven m90s. The other plus is that since it turns less Rpms it takes less power away from the engine to turn it. On was just tested on a S.C. with stock cam and heads and it made like 350hp. to the rear wheels. A really built motor should make an easy let me stress easy 400+ hp. to the rear wheels. 11 second S.C.s are going to become common place. I really believe the Coy millers 10.85 maybe broken at the up comming shootout.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-03-2005, 09:08 PM
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are you talking about the 2.2L or the 1.7L AR? With the pulley that came on the AR on a motor that has double IC, ported heads, cam, and exhaust without cats its making 14lbs and starts making full boost about 2500-3000 and starts out around 10psi. He ran a mid 13 before the install but I dont know if he's passed the 300rwhp mark yet, but he is still untuned (mail order chip) so I dont know.

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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-03-2005, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
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How the Autorotor compare to the MPII?
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-17-2005, 07:45 PM
 
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Money, complete AR kit is around $3000, m90 used cheap, you may even be able to pick up a used mp setup. Unless you have a lot of money to spend it would be cheaper to buy a S.C. and start from there. A 4.2 setup is an intresting idea. My engine turns on the power at 2700 and pulls power to 5600 revs. to 6000+ I have a ton of money in it but its bullit proof.
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-17-2005, 09:27 PM
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its not 3000, I think its more around 2100. At least thats just what Ive heard....from a friend who owns one

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-17-2005, 09:37 PM Thread Starter
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Was expecting $3k off the SC any way. As for the 4.2 think that may be passed over to someone else to do, the numbers I'm seeing for the AR are right what I'm looking for and will save me from custom pistons, rods, and crank; thereby actually saving me money.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
93 5.0 Tbird
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-17-2005, 10:09 PM
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BTW, the local guy Julian, the #2 person to have the AR and first one on a modded motor, has stock rods and forged pistons with a stud girdle. They're estimating him to pull 400rwhp and a 12.5 1/4mile pass, so that shows you how far a somewhat-stock supercoupe shortblock will take you
-Thomas

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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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Now just a matter of seeing how much one will cost me.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
93 5.0 Tbird
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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 11:11 AM
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You'll have to talk to Dave Dalke, he's the one who makes the kit. It's not really a production kit, it's more like a custom made kit that is made as his spare time allows him, I believe.

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-19-2005, 10:31 AM
 
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An A.R. kit really will give you the most bang for the buck, I have heard 75 hp. on a dead stock motor.
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-19-2005, 01:08 PM
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yeah around there. It was installed on a totally stock 90 sc and made 300rwhp. And thats with the stock pulley as well.

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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-19-2005, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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Well know the AR the thing to go for was mentioning need to find a SC short block

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
93 5.0 Tbird
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