Conceptually, is this a feasible swap into a 92 3.8 cat ? - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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Question Conceptually, is this a feasible swap into a 92 3.8 cat ?

Engine: 4.2L split port with underdrive pulleys and CAI

Transmission: 4R70W with [email protected] 48 GVWR cooler

Differential: 8.8/4.10

Rear disk brakes.


Ground rules: I'm a non-technical newbie looking for informed opinion. I have a dead cat, need an occasional truck, would prefer an everyday car. Put a hidden hitch on it and I can pull a trailer when I need to haul a fridge or sheet rock and have a curiosity of a car at the same time.

Don't expect me to justify or defend any or the above. If all this sounds crazy, that comes from too much browsing on TCCOA.

What are the known/forseeable problems in making these work together? And if they do work together, would they yield desirable MPG and HP? I am not really interested in 1/4 times.

Any price quotes from the resident Specialist gurus?

There is a vast difference between ten years' experience and one year's experience ten times.
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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Can it be?

It seems that if it the object of mods is not ten something in the quarter, the venerable great minds of TCCOA dont care to comment on them?

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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 11:50 PM
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I think it would work. Look up 4.3LCougar.

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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 12:22 AM
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The rear end swap and disc brake swap, from what I've read, shouldn't be too overly difficult, but I've never taken the time to get a first hand look at that it would take.

The engine swap could be tricky, but there is the 4.2 swap article right in this section of the forums, that looks to pretty well explain the process. The major variable is your mechanical skill level

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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelsey Smith
The engine swap could be tricky, but there is the 4.2 swap article right in this section of the forums, that looks to pretty well explain the process. The major variable is your mechanical skill level
I have read the the 4.2 swap article. The issues there are I would install the entire F150 engine, not the the mustang throtte body. Cowl hood? My car has an AOD tranny. installing a 4R70W.... computer issues? harness issues?

oh! I'm 58. used to be very handy with a spanner back when the major components under the hood (apart from the long block) were generator, distributor, carbuerettor (sp), and starting motor. But I figure I'm still a quick learner, hence the reason for this thread.

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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 01:15 AM
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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 01:15 AM
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If your using the 3.8L N/A block, the 4.2 swap isn't that bad, the split port is easy. i had some minor issues but splitportbird was very helpful with that. the 4r70w should be what you have in your car now....so thats not a issue. the 8.8" swap with 410's disc. find a donor SC to get the rear end from and buy your gears....

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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4.3Lcougar
...the 4r70w should be what you have in your car now....so thats not a issue...
A '92 3.8 will have an AOD from the factory. To use a 4R70W you would have to use an aftermarket transmission controller or change the electronics over from a '94 up 3.8. (Or better yet from a '99 up V6 Mustang.) I would suggest using the 4R70W internals in your AOD but rebuilding a transmission is not a do-it-yourself project for a "non-technical newbie". If you have the funds you could have someone else do that for you.
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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4.3Lcougar
If your using the 3.8L N/A block, the 4.2 swap isn't that bad, the split port is easy. i had some minor issues but splitportbird was very helpful with that. the 4r70w should be what you have in your car now....so thats not a issue. the 8.8" swap with 410's disc. find a donor SC to get the rear end from and buy your gears..
My 3.8 shortblock would have to be rebuilt. (blown head gasket, antifreeze everywhere from air intake to oilpan). Just wanted to plop in the whole F150 4.2L split port with about 60,000. the 3.8 was close to 150. Do I understand you correctly, that the rear end setup can be had from a thunderbird SC? I've got some more re-reading to do on this. I have a lot of undigested informtion. Axles with 28 or 31 splines, trac-loc limited slip etc..

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman_72
A '92 3.8 will have an AOD from the factory. To use a 4R70W you would have to use an aftermarket transmission controller or change the electronics over from a '94 up 3.8. (Or better yet from a '99 up V6 Mustang.) I would suggest using the 4R70W internals in your AOD but rebuilding a transmission is not a do-it-yourself project for a "non-technical newbie". If you have the funds you could have someone else do that for you.
Thanks tinman. You have gotten to the type of information I am seeking, not that I fully understand it yet.

I do have the AOD (p r n od d 1) . I take it the transmission controller is different than, and separate from, the ECU.

When you say "electronics" are you referring to just a transmission controller? Or do you mean I should swap all the wire harnesses, sensors, and controllers from the 94 3.8 or 99 mustang?

About the 4R70W. I have no intention of reuilding a tranny, or the shortblock. I know my limitations. With a lot of 'how-to' books and technical manuals I guess I could do it, but I dont want to wait three years to complete this. That's why there is a request for quotes from the specialists in my opening post. I did not specify for what I needed quotes. I expected that to come out in the discussion. I'm talking about using the 4R because

1) the split port sticky states it bolts up to the 4.2L block and I can find no information on whether the 4.2L will bolt to the AOD
2) the impression I get from the posts is that the AOD isnot tough enough for my proposed use.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.p...s+seem+good%27

This thread discusses 4r gears in the AOD, and an ebay seller doing them for what some posters thought was an incredibly low price. Determining what this project would cost is also an objective of this thread.

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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 06:07 PM
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The AOD is fully hydraulic. It is not controlled by a computer at all. The transmission controller in the 4R equipped cars is built into the EEC so you can't just swap out the controller.
I would get a quote from Darrin. (Resident transmission guru.) I think I have read some threads that he does the 4R internals into AOD's. This would be the easiest way to go. No re-wiring, it will bolt right in, and I am sure he can build it to handle whatever you want to throw at it.
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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 07:01 PM
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Well if your gonna swap motors...... Go BIG!!







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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_viny
Well if your gonna swap motors...... Go BIG!!

I'll consider that for my second project.

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1996 3.8L Cougar XR7: Crashed, passenger door and quarter panel. (daily driver)
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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-29-2006, 08:15 AM
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Blackexperience,

I am planning to build up my 3.8 to a splitported 4.2. I have a 2000 mustang V6 intake, 97 F-150 heads, and will put in a 4.2 crank, pistons and rods. I'm in the fund raising/bart collection stage. I may start with just the heads, intakes, egr, etc. I have most of that and may have the money do so shortly.

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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-29-2006, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCD
Blackexperience,

I am planning to build up my 3.8 to a splitported 4.2. I have a 2000 mustang V6 intake, 97 F-150 heads, and will put in a 4.2 crank, pistons and rods. I'm in the fund raising/bart collection stage. I may start with just the heads, intakes, egr, etc. I have most of that and may have the money do so shortly.

You're way ahead of me. I have:
the busted 3.8 which I dont want to rebuild,
an AOD tranny that slipped, and
a few dollars that i'm trying to stretch for

a 2001 f150 4.2L assembly that I'm considering buying,
tools including compressor, transmission jack, and engine stand.

I guess I'll watch your progress.

There is a vast difference between ten years' experience and one year's experience ten times.
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1996 3.8L Cougar XR7: Crashed, passenger door and quarter panel. (daily driver)
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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-29-2006, 02:32 PM
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Blackexperience,

Make sure you get the computers that go with that engine. The "happy, happy, joy, joy" is that all your accessories (A/C, alternator, Power Steering) will bolt to the 4.2 block (Actually same as the 3.8 block.) It is just that there are like 6 different computers that can run these engines. By having the whole F-150, if possible, handy is that you can pull parts, wiring harness, etc. off of the F-150 until your car runs.

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post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackexperience
Engine: 4.2L split port with underdrive pulleys and CAI

Transmission: 4R70W with [email protected] 48 GVWR cooler

Differential: 8.8/4.10

Rear disk brakes.


Its what I just built..

either buy a Bauman TCS controller for the trans or have the AOD built up with the 4R70W planetary set.
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post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 09:42 AM
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Probibly the easiest thing for you to do is to take the 4.2L long block and put your stock 3.8L Heads, oilpan, oil pump pickup, intake/exhaust manifolds, distibutor, and engine accesory drive on it and call it a day.

Swaping a COMPLETE 4.2L and 4R70W into your car would be a very costly and time consumming affair. Even trying to use the complete 4.2L and bolting it to your AOD would be troublesome as you would need to use mustang splitport intakes OR have a huge hole in your hood and you would also need to rig up a cable to for controlling the transmission as all splitports came with computer controlled trannies.
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post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rancherlee
Probibly the easiest thing for you to do is to take the 4.2L long block and put your stock 3.8L Heads, oilpan, oil pump pickup, intake/exhaust manifolds, distibutor, and engine accesory drive on it and call it a day.

Swaping a COMPLETE 4.2L and 4R70W into your car would be a very costly and time consumming affair. Even trying to use the complete 4.2L and bolting it to your AOD would be troublesome as you would need to use mustang splitport intakes OR have a huge hole in your hood and you would also need to rig up a cable to for controlling the transmission as all splitports came with computer controlled trannies.
NOW this is a downer!!

So you're saying that I should machine the old 3.8s, remove the (presumably) good heads and everthing above them from the f150 4.2L engine, and put the 3.8s on the resulting shortblock? That deprives me of the splitport. Why buy the 4.2 then just buy a 3.8 shortblock. that's cheaper.

I read the splitport swap sticky. I'm ok with a hole in the hood. I'd prefer that to swapping heads or intakes. Are cowls no longer fashionable or available?

As to the transmission, are the transmissions on the F150s not versions of the 4R70W? If so why would there be a problem with the having a computer controlled transmission in this set up? Seems it's been done before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplitPortBird
Its what I just built..

either buy a Bauman TCS controller for the trans or have the AOD built up with the 4R70W planetary set.

There was a manual transmission coupled to this engine. It would seem then that there was no computer control of the transmission. I would think that there would be no problem with ECU control of an AOD which, according to tinman_72, is completely hydraulic and not computer controlled, if I used the truck's original ECU which is available to me..

Tranny Gurus!! any thoughts?

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1993 3.3 Oldsmobile cutlass ciera S. (Wife's daily driver)
1990 Nissan Maxima. (Still runs. Rear brake lines leak. Rust issues in rear wheel wells)

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post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 12:08 PM
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You might be better off just sticking a SC motor and tranny in your Coug.

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post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCD
You might be better off just sticking a SC motor and tranny in your Coug.
no he isn't!

I hate the SC motor, having owned one! I wouldn't wish one on anybody who didn't willingly get one.

Buy the truck 4.2L splitport! It looks badass as hell, and exotic!!

**** the hood, cut that thing apart and glue an rowboat onto it! ****, i don't care, just don't puss out and put crummy 3.8 heads on it!

Find something original to do with the hood, or be hotrod-tastic and just let it be exposed!

*I* would do it!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ghost
no he isn't!

I hate the SC motor, having owned one! I wouldn't wish one on anybody who didn't willingly get one.

Buy the truck 4.2L splitport! It looks badass as hell, and exotic!!

**** the hood, cut that thing apart and glue an rowboat onto it! ****, i don't care, just don't puss out and put crummy 3.8 heads on it!

Find something original to do with the hood, or be hotrod-tastic and just let it be exposed!

*I* would do it!

-Ghost

I am so inclined pending clarification of the choice of transmission. so far the opinions I have are that

Stock AOD wont survive.
Stock AOD means problems with computer contol.
4r70w is expensive and time consuming.
and have darrin/dirtyd0g build me a AOD with 4R70W internals.

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1996 3.8L Cougar XR7: Crashed, passenger door and quarter panel. (daily driver)
1993 3.3 Oldsmobile cutlass ciera S. (Wife's daily driver)
1990 Nissan Maxima. (Still runs. Rear brake lines leak. Rust issues in rear wheel wells)
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post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackexperience
...Stock AOD means problems with computer contol....
No. The AOD is not computer controlled at all. If you use the 4R70W you will have problems with computer control.
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post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman_72
No. The AOD is not computer controlled at all. If you use the 4R70W you will have problems with computer control.
Tinman,

I follow you completely on the AOD. You explained that clearly and I quote you at the end of #18.

I'm trying to get clarity on statements made about Problems with the 4R70W tranny.

Do you mean it would be difficult to make computer control of the 4R70W work correctly?

Or do you mean simply that I will have the additional process of installing computer control of the Transmission if I use the 4R70W rather than the AOD?

There is a vast difference between ten years' experience and one year's experience ten times.
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1996 3.8L Cougar XR7: Crashed, passenger door and quarter panel. (daily driver)
1993 3.3 Oldsmobile cutlass ciera S. (Wife's daily driver)
1990 Nissan Maxima. (Still runs. Rear brake lines leak. Rust issues in rear wheel wells)
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post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 03:30 PM
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Whatever's easier. I'd opt for the 4R70W.

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post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackexperience
...Do you mean it would be difficult to make computer control of the 4R70W work correctly?

Or do you mean simply that I will have the additional process of installing computer control of the Transmission if I use the 4R70W rather than the AOD?
Yes to both. Since your car already has an AOD, obviously an AOD will be the easiest swap. You bolt it to the engine, and it works. If you use a 4R70W it is electronically controlled so you would have to find a way to wire it in, whether you use a Baumann controller or an EEC-V computer. The aftermarket one is probably much easier but I think they go for around $500 (not including the wiring harness)
So your choices are:
  • Use an AOD with AOD gears
  • Use an AOD with 4R70W gears
  • Use a 4R70W and play with the wiring/electronics
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post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman_72
Yes to both. Since your car already has an AOD, obviously an AOD will be the easiest swap. You bolt it to the engine, and it works. If you use a 4R70W it is electronically controlled so you would have to find a way to wire it in, whether you use a Baumann controller or an EEC-V computer. The aftermarket one is probably much easier but I think they go for around $500 (not including the wiring harness)
So your choices are:
  • Use an AOD with AOD gears
  • Use an AOD with 4R70W gears
  • Use a 4R70W and play with the wiring/electronics

Absolute Clarity!

Thank you sir!

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post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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coil packs.

I am told that the f150 4.2L V6 ignition system uses coil packs. Can you guys tell me what problems, if any, I may encounter making it work in my 92 cougar which had a distributor?

I will have the F15o EEC and harness to work with.

There is a vast difference between ten years' experience and one year's experience ten times.
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1996 3.8L Cougar XR7: Crashed, passenger door and quarter panel. (daily driver)
1993 3.3 Oldsmobile cutlass ciera S. (Wife's daily driver)
1990 Nissan Maxima. (Still runs. Rear brake lines leak. Rust issues in rear wheel wells)
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post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 04:00 PM
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Black, your best bet is to speak with racecougar. He has swapped a splitport engine into a car that had a distributor.

That being said, I had planned on putting a 4.2 into my old thunderbird. I got so far as to just needing a few nuts and bolts and it was ready to drop in. What you are planning on (4.2 truck engine complete with truck intake) is going to be a tall task. Even with a cowl hood, you will have to make some additional modifications to the hood for clearance. For what you are wanting out of this vehicle, I would suggest going with a 302 swap instead. While the splitport is a worthwhile swap, what will be needed to make it a good daily driver and a good tow vehicle far outweighs the benefit of the swap.

This is just my 2 cents. I would sell the car or drop in a junkyard 3.8 and sell it, or just rebuild the engine and buy a truck.

edit: Incase you haven't seen the thread I made some years ago on this project, do a search for it. I spent well over 4k on this project, and that includes a freshly built transmission by Dirtyd0g

RIP Joel Bender and Preston Smith. The world will never be the same without you.
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post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litning
Black, your best bet is to speak with racecougar. He has swapped a splitport engine into a car that had a distributor.

That being said, I had planned on putting a 4.2 into my old thunderbird. I got so far as to just needing a few nuts and bolts and it was ready to drop in. What you are planning on (4.2 truck engine complete with truck intake) is going to be a tall task. Even with a cowl hood, you will have to make some additional modifications to the hood for clearance. For what you are wanting out of this vehicle, I would suggest going with a 302 swap instead. While the splitport is a worthwhile swap, what will be needed to make it a good daily driver and a good tow vehicle far outweighs the benefit of the swap.

This is just my 2 cents. I would sell the car or drop in a junkyard 3.8 and sell it, or just rebuild the engine and buy a truck.

edit: Incase you haven't seen the thread I made some years ago on this project, do a search for it. I spent well over 4k on this project, and that includes a freshly built transmission by Dirtyd0g

I never argue with results, or non-results for that matter.
And see my signature for my opinion on experience.
I'll go see from your thread, why you aborted the project. or i'll ask you directly.

There is a vast difference between ten years' experience and one year's experience ten times.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
.
1996 3.8L Cougar XR7: Crashed, passenger door and quarter panel. (daily driver)
1993 3.3 Oldsmobile cutlass ciera S. (Wife's daily driver)
1990 Nissan Maxima. (Still runs. Rear brake lines leak. Rust issues in rear wheel wells)
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post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 06:11 PM
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Here is my $.02:

If you get the 4.2 truck motor, all you have to do is get the upper intake manifold from a 99+ mustang and it will fit under your hood. The 4.2 fuel rail and lower intake are ideal for the swap anyway, since the 4.2 rail is return-style and the 4.2 lower has all the cooling ports you need for sensors. You can delete the EGR, or make a custom EGR tube to go around the distributor.

I am in the process of building a bullet-proof AOD with 4r70w gearset, TCI input shaft, 9.5" high stall converter, hardened output shaft, Lentech manual valvebody, etc. and I will tell you from experience, get the 4r70w and use the Baumann stand-alone management for it. You can control line pressure, shift points, lock-up of the converter, etc. And the best thing is that by having the ability to control the locking of the converter, you can keep a locking converter while still putting a lot of power through it. And the input shaft is already very strong.

My advice, 4.2 split-port with mustang upper intake manifold, stock computer with piggy-back chip for a re-tune, built 4r70w with high stall converter and Bauman controller.

-Thomas

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
2003 SVT Focus: - SCT X3 tuner
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