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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Knocks on cold start for about 5 secs

Ok, I bought a this 96 back in August didn't seem to have any problems till now.

About 2 months ago the dash would suddenly loose electrical power , check gauges light would come on and oil gauge would drop to zero. It has not done this since about September, when I started putting the synthetic blend in.The "check gauges" light came on when I stopped, and the RPMs dipped to 500, and the oil pressure gauge dropped too

Every time I start it when its cold or sitting over night I get a knock for about 5 secs, until the gauge moves. I am using valvoline 5w30 sythetic blend with motorcraft filter. Currently oil gauge runs on the M of NORM. Car runs fine just not sure if I have a bad lifter, oil pump or even worse a motor. It does not have a knock except at start up, I drive about 70 miles day to work and back.

The last time i did an oil change it knocked loud (the motor really shook hard)before the pressure built, I always prefill the filter.

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Last edited by rzimmerl; 02-01-2007 at 08:09 AM.
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 08:33 AM
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Sounds like either bearing noise (crank) or valvetrain to me. Have you checked the oil pressure w/ a real guage? Might just be the sound of the upper end until the oil pressure pumps up. My 5.0 has done this for years when it gets cold out, and I have yet to run into any mechanical issues. Of course I'm not running a syn. blend oil, just plain ol dino oil.

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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 08:36 AM
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Try dumping a bottle or 2 of STP or motor honey in the oil to make it really thick. If the knock gets lower or completely goes away at cold start its time for new rod bearings. Last 3.8 I rebuilt the bearings were half their normal thickness, the crank was wasted, but the rods were nearly perfect still. I installed a new crank and bearings and it has gone another 10K since then.
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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 08:50 AM Thread Starter
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I am going to get a mechanical gauge today, anyone know which fittings I will also need to pickup. I don't think its a lifter, my SC has tick until it gets warm and goes away, this is definately coming from the bottom end on startup. It only does it at startup, it runs great thru the rpm range.

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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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I called my local dealer ship and they said it could be simple as a oil bad filter check valve, this is like my 3rd oil change in this car and only knocked hard this time. Going to change the filter and then check the pressure.

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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 09:56 AM
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Tossing in two cans of STP can cause a seals to blow if it is not poured into a hot running engine slowwwly.

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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 10:20 AM
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Good point, put it in a warm engine, then check cold. Do the oil filter swap first, but I have never heard of a Motorcraft drainback valve fail. Now if you had said Fram...................
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
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I should be able to remove the factory pressure sensor and just install the mechanical gauge to check the pressure, correct? I am probably just going to replace the pressure sensor since I will already have it off.

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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 11:41 AM
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If you're going to install a mechanical gauge, there is a second fitting right next to the factory gauge fitting in the filter adapter. No need to remove the factory fitting.

Rod (racecougar) has pics of the set up in here somewhere. He used an electrical gauge, but I used the same location for my mechanical gauge. Its even easy to get to.


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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 12:46 PM
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He has a 3.8, it only has one outlet for the gauge and its a tight fit as is.
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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 01:15 PM
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start running 10w30 in it

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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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well, got the oil changed, put 5W30 back in. Had about 600 miles on it and it came out jet black like it does after about 3000 miles usually. My guess is something was wrong with the filter. It only took about 4 secs. for it to reprime after the change, not 15 or so after the last one. Got it sitting outside to cool down then I'll restart it, looks like won't be able to get the gauge on until Friday.

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2007, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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well chekced the oil pressure runs 12psi at hot idle, going to put some dino 10w30 in and see what happens.

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2007, 05:22 PM
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and use a steel core filter. Frams are cardboard core, lol

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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2007, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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4 quarts castrol 10w30 and 1 quart lucas stabilizer, motorcraft filter

cold 30 psi idle, 60psi 2000rpm
hot 15 idle, 40 psi 2000 rpm

does this sound ok?

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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2007, 06:06 PM
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With that thick syrup you now have for oil I would say your bearings are toasted given those pressure readings.
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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2007, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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edit..... sitting for 2 hours outside, no knock and 60psi cold, 45psi in gear....

1990 SC AOD 1.7L AR....11.75 @118
441 RWHP 435 RWTQ

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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2007, 07:23 PM
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Last one I did only knocked after it sat overnight, they had driven it for another month then it was knocking all the time.
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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2007, 08:12 PM
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Mine did the same thing, then it ended with a motor swap!

Your ego is writing checks your a$$ can't cash.
Installing a motor with some parts to go faster.
Oh yeah the engine is painted so that adds 15hp right there!
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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2007, 09:22 PM Thread Starter
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kinda what i figured, anyone got a spare motor laying around in NW Ohio

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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 06:58 AM Thread Starter
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i let it sit overnight, it knocks until it gets oil pressure, it reads 0psi for a few seconds and soon as it starts reading it goes away. Sounds just like it does after a fresh oil change. Think I am going to try a oil pump to see if it builds pressure quicker, its $65 from the dealer. It does not knock thru the rpm range when cold at all, I just drove a 600 mile trip last weekend and drive it 70 miles round trip every day. I would have thought she would have locked up by now.

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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 08:52 AM
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Sorry to say, but you are probably leaking the oil interal to the oil galley through the now enlarged rod bearing clearances. If this is true and you take it apart now you might have a chance at saving the rods (I did on the last one). I bought a reground crank and bearing kit off Ebay for $150. It is an easy motor to rebuild, and the chances of getting a good one from the junkyard are pretty slim. Whoever had the car before you probably let it detonate alot and thats what kills the rod bearings.
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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 08:59 AM
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Change the oil and put some 20W50 in it and see how it goes. You may be able to keep to together for a while this way. With a sloppy motor 20W50 can be a real friend. The light oil is doing you no good and a heavy oil being more viscous will help on startup.

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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark M. TCCoA VP
Change the oil and put some 20W50 in it and see how it goes. You may be able to keep to together for a while this way. With a sloppy motor 20W50 can be a real friend. The light oil is doing you no good and a heavy oil being more viscous will help on startup.

4 qts of 30W with a qt of Lucas is already about a 50W
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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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I would like to rebuild but that is not going to work. With the way winter is going the SC will be a real pain to drive, since its not fun in the rain. I don't have any other choice other than buying a yard motor or a fresh rebuild. I had planned on selling this car in the spring since its not much fun putting the kid in and out of the backseat.

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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 09:15 AM
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Well I don't know what that would be and are you talking straight 30W or 5W 30?

5W30 is a 5W when cold then as the oil heats up polymer nodules swell (uncoil) and resist flow and this is what increases viscosity.

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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark M. TCCoA VP
Well I don't know what that would be and are you talking straight 30W or 5W 30?

5W30 is a 5W when cold then as the oil heats up polymer nodules swell and resist flow and this is what increases viscosity.


Actually its the HC polymer chains coiling tighter at higher temps. The viscosity never increases with temp, rather it doesn't decrease as much, or conversly it doesn't increase as much with lower temps which is a better description.

Lucas is a thick Grp II stock with little to zero additive and the best marketing campaign in the oil business. I have no idea what his cold equivalent spec is now but with the mix he has that is a motor ready to die given what he has said.

I would never use Lucas BTW, all it does is make your oil thicker and the additives more watered down than they already are.
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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 09:27 AM
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Found this:

Unraveling the Mysteries of Lubrication
As we grow older we should be getting smarter but with all the new technology today it is hard to keep up. Are you confused by the oil companies multi-million dollar advertising campaigns? What about synthetic oils and additives? Are they worth it? Do they Work? The answer lies in understanding how lubrication works. Bypass all the hype and get scientific.

Oil companies provide data on their oils most often referred to as "typical inspection data." This is an average of the actual physical and a few common chemical properties of their oils. This information is available to the public through their distributors or by writing or calling the company directly.

This article looks at some of the most important properties of a motor oil readily available to the public: viscosity, viscosity index (VI), flash point, pour point, % sulfated ash, and % zinc.

VISCOSITY
Viscosity is the measure of how thick an oil is. Viscosity, or weight, is another criteria for judging an oil's service rating. Simply put, viscosity is the oil's resistance to flow or motion. Viscosity varies under different temperatures and is vital for maintaining a lubricant film between moving parts. Viscosity plays a role in an engine's cold-cranking ability, the movement of gears, meeting load capacities, heat-up of critical engine parts and the oil consumption rate.

Since the 1960's, multi-viscosity oils have been popular. In simple terms, a multi-viscosity oil, such as 10W-40, means that the oil will pour and flow like a 10-weight oil at very low temperatures yet offer the same lubrication ability as 40-weight oil when the engine reaches operating temperatures.

An oil with too low a viscosity can shear and loose film strength at high temperatures. An oil with too high a viscosity may not pump to the proper parts at low temperatures and the film may tear at high rpm.

WEIGHTS
The weights given on oils are arbitrary numbers assigned by the S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers). These numbers correspond to "real" viscosity, as measured by several accepted techniques. These measurements are taken at specific temperatures. Oils that fall into a certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 by the S.A.E. The W means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore suitable for Winter use.

MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS
Multi viscosity oils have polymers added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up, the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C, the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot.

Multi-viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi-grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter, base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter; in the summer, the highest temperature you expect.

10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers (synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. The polymers can shear and burn, forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best. Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are appropriate for your vehicle.

VISCOSITY INDEX
Viscosity Index is an empirical number indicating the rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range. It is not an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown.

FLASH POINT
Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil. The lower the flash point the greater tendency for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used. The higher the flash point the better. 400 F is the minimum to prevent possible high consumption.

POUR POINT
Pour point is 5 degrees F above the point at which a chilled oil shows no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined. This measurement is especially important for oils used in the winter. A borderline pumping temperature is given by some manufacturers. This is the temperature at which the oil will pump and maintain adequate oil pressure. This was not given by a lot of the manufacturers, but seems to be about 20 degrees F above the pour point. The lower the pour point the better.

%SULFATED ASH
Percent sulfated ash is how much solid material is left when the oil burns. A high ash content will tend to form more sludge and deposits in the engine. Low ash content also seems to promote long valve life. Look for oils with a low ash content.

% ZINC
Percent zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti-wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of 0.11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval under normal use. Those of you with high revving, air cooled motorcycles or turbocharged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More doesn't give you better protection; it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling.


VISCOSITY IMPROVERS
Why buy 10W-30 when there is 5W-30 or 10W-40 available? Is there something "wrong" with oils with a larger range? Nothing's really "wrong" with larger ranges, but the fact that an oil has a larger viscosity range means that it uses more viscosity improvers.

Viscosity improvers (VIs for short) are fairly large molecules which, at low temperatures, are "curled" into little balls and don't thicken the oil. At higher temperatures, the VIs "uncurl" into long chain molecules which give the oil greater viscosity. Thus, a 5W-30 behaves like a 5W oil at low temperature, and thickens at high temperature into a 30W viscosity.

The drawback of VIs is that because they are long and complex molecules, they are very susceptible to shear as oil circulates within the engine. VI's will suffer breakdown and lose their ability to perform their task. The more VI's an oil uses, the more the oil is subject to this breakdown; losing its ability to provide the necessary viscosity improvement.

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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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its suprising how all you guys that have responded all have V8's and no one with a V6 has even given an opinion. Are the V6 guys not wanting to break the truth to me?

1990 SC AOD 1.7L AR....11.75 @118
441 RWHP 435 RWTQ
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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-03-2007, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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called a local yard

$500, 82,000 miles, 30 day warranty. Engine is still in the car.

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