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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
 
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4R70W in a 5.0?

I just starter looking in to this. I have a 85 mustang and Was just thinking of putting a 4R70W in it with the 5.0 swap I'm doing. It will be a "toy" and by that I mean maybe 400 hp / tq but not more. set up mostly to drive and some 1/4 time a little spray would make the 400 hp/ tq. It will be a efi car with a 91 gt 5 speed computer. I would like to put a 4R70W in it but just don't know if I am wasting my time looking in to this and should just go with a AOD and get a cumputor that was for a 5.0 with and aod. any info would help thanks.
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 10:42 AM
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From Darrin,

You really just need to get a 4r70w from an 97-98 Explorer. There are no wiring/PCM issues in your swap other than a minor one if you get a 98 trans. The trans form a 97 Explorer will work perfectly fine with your computer and wiring. The only difference is the bellhousing, the TCC solenoid and the manual lever.
So, the only things you would have to swap would be the TCC solenoid and the manual lever. You should be able to do that in about 10 minutes or less. And, you will have a stronger tranny than is in your 95.
If you get a 98 or newer then you will either have to swap the internal electronics over or rewire the harness on the car. Swapping all of the internal electronics only involves the shift solenoid assy, the EPC and the temp sensor. It won't even take a whole minute to grab those things if you are getting the lever and the TCC. You can get a new internal Harness from Ford or pull the one out of your old trans. You will need to unbolt the valve body to change the harness, but it sounds a lot harder than it is. I could be in and out of both transmissions in less than 15 minutes and have it done with a coffee break in the middle somewhere.
Don't worry, its so easy you will kick yourself when you see what it is you are worried about compared to the HUGE issues with adapting that old POS tranny.

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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark M. TCCoA VP View Post
From Darrin,

you will have a stronger tranny than is in your 95.
He has a 85 stang and a 91 ECM.
Wouldn't he need an ECM from a 94-95 stang to control the shifts on a 4R70W?

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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 11:14 AM
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yes he would a new ECM. Forget about the Bauman POS stand alone system.

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark M. TCCoA VP View Post
yes he would a new ECM. Forget about the Bauman POS stand alone system.
Just out of curiosity, have you used the Bauman system? If so, what issues did you have to call it a POS? I've heard about 80% people say its good and about 20% say it's bad. (Most of everyone I’ve talked to that said it was bad was they were using it with a EFI engine whereas the 80% were using it with a carb setup).

Not arguing, just looking for more opinions/information.

And to keep on topic, can't an AOD be built to basically the same level as a 4R70W?

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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 11:31 AM
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Over the years we had a number of guys try it out and they ended up tossing the units. I have yet to see anyone here praise the unit.

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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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Good to know. thanks for a good start.
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ClintD View Post
He has a 85 stang and a 91 ECM.
Wouldn't he need an ECM from a 94-95 stang to control the shifts on a 4R70W?
I would swap to a 96 or later OBDII EEC. You'll have much greater diagnostics and datalogging capability.

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 04:09 PM
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or put a 4R70W gearset in an AOD and use the PA valvebody to compensate for the gears.

we all know the valvebody is a bit pricey, but a 4R gearset should be easy to get and then just get a god rebuild kit for an AOD, you could pick up a fubar AOD for transplant purposes and make the downtime minimal.




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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 94 Daily Driven 4.6L View Post
Just out of curiosity, have you used the Bauman system? If so, what issues did you have to call it a POS? I've heard about 80% people say its good and about 20% say it's bad. (Most of everyone I’ve talked to that said it was bad was they were using it with a EFI engine whereas the 80% were using it with a carb setup).

Not arguing, just looking for more opinions/information.

And to keep on topic, can't an AOD be built to basically the same level as a 4R70W?
I looked at Baumann's control software a long time ago. Compared to the OEM control, Baumann is simplistic. Baumann's idea of trans control is to make it shift, but not much else. Unless they've updated the capability, any changes you would want to make would have to be done with the valvebody. So you end up with a fancy AOD.

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 04:51 PM
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I would swap to a 96 or later OBDII EEC. You'll have much greater diagnostics and datalogging capability.

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96 had a 4.6.

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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 05:06 PM
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96 had a 4.6.
I would bet a wooden nickel that he meant to say an explorer 5.0 eec-v ecu.

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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 05:18 PM
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I would bet a wooden nickel that he meant to say an explorer 5.0 eec-v ecu.
Any OBDII 5.0 explorer EEC will work.

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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 07:52 PM
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I love my Baumann TCS,, never had a problem with it,, the tuneability is great!

I've had it now for 4 years on my daily driven truck (Ranger 5.0L w/ 98 explorer 4r70w)

They even sell complete harness's that plug n play now which is sweet.

if the car is carb'd then you run into huge problems using a factory EEC.. but baumann atleast allows the adaption of a TPS to controll the trans.

I'd personally swear by the TCS controller.


I wannted to add the all the shift points are tuneable.. meaning not only at WOT but also at any load and even the torque conveter lockup schedule can be raised or lowered at any point you need.

the line pressure can also be adjusted according to load.. while raising EPC pressure is not a fix by any means I am able to chirp 2nd in my STOCK 112K mile trans.

Also being able to monitor actual trans temps without a gauge with my laptop is nice.

So the comment about just there to make it shift is B.S. in itself. If you owned a TCS then you can talk but I hate seeing second hand comments on a great product.

I can load a Race Program or a Towing Program or any program for that matter in a matter of seconds which is nice.

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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 08:18 PM
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I love my Baumann TCS,, never had a problem with it,, the tuneability is great!

I've had it now for 4 years on my daily driven truck (Ranger 5.0L w/ 98 explorer 4r70w)

They even sell complete harness's that plug n play now which is sweet.

if the car is carb'd then you run into huge problems using a factory EEC.. but baumann atleast allows the adaption of a TPS to controll the trans.

I'd personally swear by the TCS controller.


I wannted to add the all the shift points are tuneable.. meaning not only at WOT but also at any load and even the torque conveter lockup schedule can be raised or lowered at any point you need.

the line pressure can also be adjusted according to load.. while raising EPC pressure is not a fix by any means I am able to chirp 2nd in my STOCK 112K mile trans.

Also being able to monitor actual trans temps without a gauge with my laptop is nice.

So the comment about just there to make it shift is B.S. in itself. If you owned a TCS then you can talk but I hate seeing second hand comments on a great product.

I can load a Race Program or a Towing Program or any program for that matter in a matter of seconds which is nice.

Brad
The individual who looked at the Baumann software with me was Jerry Wroblewski - formerly of Ford who's primary responsibility was the development of the 4R70W. Have you seen or do you know what the OEM trans control capabilities are? Perhaps the Baumann offers you a level of trans control you want or are comfortable with, but it is no BS that that control system turns a 4R70W into a fancy AOD. There's really nothing more to say about this.

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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
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The individual who looked at the Baumann software with me was Jerry Wroblewski - formerly of Ford who's primary responsibility was the development of the 4R70W. Have you seen or do you know what the OEM trans control capabilities are? Perhaps the Baumann offers you a level of trans control you want or are comfortable with, but it is no BS that that control system turns a 4R70W into a fancy AOD. There's really nothing more to say about this.

Mitch
Care to ellaborate? or just call it a fancy AOD

asside from having a different gear ratio and electronic shifting and lockup I would call the 4r70w a glorified AOD right from the factory. as far as the stock eec electronics there are a few points missing from the TCS but the best one is the variable lockup which usually eats converters anyway. hence the dreaded torque converter shutter.

So in stock EEC form you say that the shifts point and whatnot are better then what can be achieved (performance wise) threw a baumann TCS?? or are you saying that you can tune a stock EEC to shift better and thus spend abother 400$ on top of the EEC conversion.
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-11-2007, 11:03 PM
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You aren't that far from me. If you get the chance you should come over and have a look at the amazing amount of control that I have with these transmissions in the SCT software. There is so much stuff there that even most SCT dealers can get lost immediately.

If you have a day or so to spare you can look through it and read some of the definitions of the parameters to give you a hint of perspective as to what you can do with a factory computer and the proper software. If you have a few years you could maybe even learn how to use the majority of it.

I really hate to tell you, but the capabilities here are far and above your estimation of them.

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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-12-2007, 06:54 AM
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Has any naysayer of the TCS actually owned one? Has anyone sat down and gone through every option available through a TCS and compared it to a SCT tune? I'm not saying that what people are saying is not true, I'm just saying that much of what I have heard negative about the TCS has never come from someone that has actually owned one. It is always second hand info, or Joe Blow said, or blah, blah, blah. Darrin, you say to come and look at the parameters. Have you looked at the parameters in the TCS? Have you ever tuned a TCS for one of your customers? I’m just curious since you have so much experience with the transmissions, I would value an honest comparison between the two.

It seems that everything I hear from people that say the TCS is bad is never from first hand experience. And before you say J.W. said it was a POS, to that I say, "How many years ago was it that J.W. looked at the TCS?"

I just think before people knock the TCS it should be put into perspective that it has its place where it shines and people don’t have complaints about it. And that is behind a carb’d engine (from what I’ve researched). I can say this from my research: The TCS has a very good reputation when it is attached to a carb’d engine, and many of the sites (early Cougar sites, early F series trucks sites, BBF engines sites, 351C engine sites, etc.) that I visit always highly recommend it.

I'd like to see someone install a 4R70W onto a carb’d engine and then provide an SCT tune for it that lets you use the cruise control buttons as a shifter....

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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-12-2007, 07:02 AM
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I haven't owned one, but I have seen them, very recently actually, and they have their place. Which, is exactly where you are saying, behind a carb'd engine. The OP wasn't talking about a carb vehicle. All I am saying is that there is a much better choice that will allow you far more control in that scenario.

Simple is fine if you want that or are stuck using it.

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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-12-2007, 07:32 AM
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I agree 100%.

I just wish more people would clarify sometimes before they say something is a POS. What is a POS for one application may be perfect for a different application.

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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-12-2007, 07:38 AM
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We were talking about the use of the unit in an EFI car which has been debated many times over the years. I think for a carbed car I would personally go with the AOD with the 4R70W gearset and save all the electronic hassle.

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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-12-2007, 07:42 AM
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We were talking about the use of the unit in an EFI car which has been debated many times over the years. I think for a carbed car I would personally go with the AOD with the 4R70W gearset and save all the electronic hassle.
I thought it, you said it.

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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-12-2007, 04:48 PM
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I never even thought about the fact I can shift with my cruise control buttons! lol I was gonna hook up some paddle shifters just for the fun of it.

I will agree with the fact that there is more tuneability options with a EEC,, as it has the ability to read the actual LOAD on the engine based upon ACT, Temp, RPM, Mass-Air Etc etc..

While the TCS is strictly based upon RPM and TPS to get its load values.

But like I said above,, the majority of people who either swap in a EEC or TCS no matter what the application is probably looking for performace..

In a performance application either the EEC or TCS will do the exact same thing and that job is to actuate the solenoids at a given RPM. the shift solenoids or either On or OFF so there is no PWM to be concerned about, just the fact that you want it to happen within the engines powerband.

now with a AOD w/4r70w gearset you can probably get the shift points close but not without govenor or valvebody mods,, and it still leaves you with the inherant weakness's of the AOD design.

with the 4r70w you can tune to almost within 50 rpm of the shift point you desire,, if trying to acheieve every ounce of power out of your combo this is a great step forward. keeping the engine in its powerband is key.

Now personally,, I wish Baumann would get off his ass and work on getting the TCS to controll the 5 or 6spd automatic and be ablt to adapt them to the 5.0L platform.
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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-14-2007, 09:53 AM
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YOUNOGO, if you plan on keeping the A9P or whatever, you can still install an AOD with zero electronic BS. You can get a manual VB and drop the TV cable also...then you get a stand alone trans.

As for a swap to the 4R.....explian your goal more....the 4R swap in a fox is AWSOME for turbo setup or wanting that glory mpg and sport fun.

Outside of electronics, there is 4R manual VB's as well.

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-14-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
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I thought it, you said it.

Darrin

didnt i say that?




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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-16-2007, 10:34 PM
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AODE vs 4R70W

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Originally Posted by ClintD View Post
He has a 85 stang and a 91 ECM.
Wouldn't he need an ECM from a 94-95 stang to control the shifts on a 4R70W?
94-95 mustangs have the AOD-E trans, I read somewhere that the shift solonoids are wired diffrent so its not a plug and play deal, not impossible but will take some doing

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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-26-2007, 12:09 PM
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I have over 30K miles on my TCS, and it works great, kinda bummed on the vb3 software, but, for the price what can ya do?

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