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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-31-2010, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Neutralizing 4R70W

Hey all first timer here and what better way to introduce myself than with my problems.

I have a 1998 Mark VIII LSC. It was recently modified. A lower mile(20K) rebuilt 4R70W out of a newer Vic was put in. My installer found a decent amount of clutch material in my original tranny. For $600 to the cost, I thought, eh, what the heck. The car has 4.10 gears, 3800 Stall Circle D converter, kooks headers with x-pipe and stainless mufflers, a JMOD to the valve body and engine and tranny mounts.

Anyhoo, here is the problem. The transmission will neutralize at about 30 mph on light throttle right before lock-up into overdrive. On hard throttle, the transmission shifts like a million bux.

In an attempt to narrow down this issue, here is what has been replaced:

MLP sensor
TCC Solenoid (valve body)
SS1/2 Shift Solenoid Pack (valve body)
EPC Solenoid (valve body)
Wiring Harness(valve body)

I have an SCT chip that I bought from Bill over at SCP. Dave Dahlke does his tuning. In my tune, I had the transmission parameters LEFT ALONE. In other words, calibrations were done for the 4.10s and the stall, but shift strength was left stock. No line pressure increase whatsoever.

I hope that the tune solves my issue. I am really running out of options here. My installer keeps telling me the clutch packs are new in the tranny. I hope I can believe him. The guy has been a real corner-cutting d-bag and I really dont know anymore.

For example:

Electrical Taped o2 sensor extensions
Noisy gears set at 5 thous. (wtf?!)
Pinhole Exhaust leak on his chinsy weld by the x-pipe
Leaky dipstick tube for the tranny that he had to fix
Slightly Leaking front pump seal

I just want to give you guys an idea of this nut job I have been dealing with. We have been butting heads for a while now.



Here are a couple videos. Sorry about the poor quality.

In the first I am light throttle when the tranny neutralizes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzkmMRbzRR4


In this second video, it is a little bit tougher to tell without actually being there. I throttled a little harder this time and it shifts ok. BUT, when I let off the gas at that spot, I can feel the tranny is in neutral in the seat of my pants.(Again, hard to show u when you're not in the car) Then if you watch the tachometer you can see it THUNK into gear. I can feel it like someone kicks the back of my seat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H47bt...eature=related
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 09:16 AM
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Hiya, nice to see you here
There's some good trans guys on this forum so hopefully someone will pitch in a make some good suggestions/help for you.

Ϣr

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 10:25 AM
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Either you have a valvebody issue, faulty pcm or internal transmission problem, how did the fluid look.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyd0g View Post
Either you have a valvebody issue, faulty pcm or internal transmission problem, how did the fluid look.
Alan
The fluid looked fine. Still as red as can be when we swapped out the electronics. I had a second tranny cooler installed at the same time for safety measures. I picked up a spare PCM and am now running this one with the same issue. NOTE: The catch code and bar code are the same on this other PCM, so it is compatible with the tune.

What kind of valve body issue would be a possibility? The valve body is the original out of my original tranny. I had a separator plate style shift kit installed from Bill over at SCP.

Here is the link to the kit:

http://supercoupeperformance.com/par...spx?partId=228



What if my tuner raised shift points and commanded the torque converter to lock up later in the shift schedule, like say after overdrive? Can this still be solved in the tune?

I have just about had it with this clown that did the install for me. If I can't figure it out, I guess it is off to AAMCO for another tranny.

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
1992 F150 XLT
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 01:27 PM
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I see flare issues often when the overdrive servo and spring are replaced.
Alan

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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyd0g View Post
I see flare issues often when the overdrive servo and spring are replaced.
Alan
The tranny supposedly shifted and worked fine before it was put into my car with the mods. It is claimed to have about 20k miles. Is this o/d servo and spring that you speak of part of this kit I had installed, or are we talking about internal components?

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
1992 F150 XLT
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 09:41 PM
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It is a late model transmission? They tend to do that. Most of the time it is tolerable. The od servo and spring would come in any late model transmission. The stall makes the efect worse. A good tuner can make it go away. You might want to call Dave and talk to him. He is a wealth of information.
Alan

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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 10:59 PM
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I have a different opinion but I will watch and see. I too though think it's relative to the newer transmission, but I don't think it has anything at all to do with the OD servo and spring.

Darrin

01 F150 5.4L 4x4 and a 98 Mustang GT vert sitting engineless and without transmission or converter


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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
I have a different opinion but I will watch and see. I too though think it's relative to the newer transmission, but I don't think it has anything at all to do with the OD servo and spring.

Darrin

So your opinion is?

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
1992 F150 XLT
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 01:38 AM
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My nickel:

When I jmodded my tranny it started an ever-so-slight flare that wasn't there prior to the Jmod on the shift to OD. In my case, the early model tranny (94) has too much overlap, and that I believe was corrected in later model trannies which is incorporated into the J-mod-hence my very light flare under light throttle application on the shift to 4th.

Now having said that, I don't know if DirtyDog seen your video, and I know he said a stall converter will exasorbate the flare, but that is a pretty bad flare IMHO.

-Alan
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 04:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdTN View Post
My nickel:

When I jmodded my tranny it started an ever-so-slight flare that wasn't there prior to the Jmod on the shift to OD. In my case, the early model tranny (94) has too much overlap, and that I believe was corrected in later model trannies which is incorporated into the J-mod-hence my very light flare under light throttle application on the shift to 4th.

Now having said that, I don't know if DirtyDog seen your video, and I know he said a stall converter will exasorbate the flare, but that is a pretty bad flare IMHO.

-Alan
I agree!! If this is a flare, it is a pretty bad one.

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 01:58 PM
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I just watched the videos and I was wrong. It isn't what I thought. Particularly with the fact that I see the original VB was re-used.

Being that everything works, but not as expected, this is likely a control issue of some sort. With it being as pronounced as it is and seemingly regular and predictable, I would almost want to rule out something sticking. Back to the tuning idea again maybe.

Sorry for the false alarm. I jumped the gun before I had enough facts.

Darrin

01 F150 5.4L 4x4 and a 98 Mustang GT vert sitting engineless and without transmission or converter


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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 02:17 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Both of my '02 stock trannys do this; a 93 octane 'stock' mail tune made it mostly go away.

Supposedly raising the pressure during the shift was a fix, but IDK.

The easy way around it is to just make sure you're on power when the shift happens, lol. (joking)

I use the od lockout thru school zones, that's where it usually gets me.

BTW, It will do a "neutral drop" if you nail it, be careful. That can't be good for it.

I did it (accidentally) leaving a 25mph school zone with the stereo up once, nice little burnout in 4th at ~35mph; It must have hit redline.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 11:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Both of my '02 stock trannys do this; a 93 octane 'stock' mail tune made it mostly go away.

Supposedly raising the pressure during the shift was a fix, but IDK.

The easy way around it is to just make sure you're on power when the shift happens, lol. (joking)

I use the od lockout thru school zones, that's where it usually gets me.

BTW, It will do a "neutral drop" if you nail it, be careful. That can't be good for it.

I did it (accidentally) leaving a 25mph school zone with the stereo up once, nice little burnout in 4th at ~35mph; It must have hit redline.
Yup. I know all about that. I just don't understand how this is NORMAL. Personally, I think it is potentially bad for the drivetrain and transmission both. Most of the time I would like to cruise at regular throttle in order to get that great gas mileage(unless I am racing a Stang of course) but with this condition, it sure makes regular driveability around town a real *****.

I was expecting to talk to the tuner yesterday but never got a call. I guess I should be on the phone with him today and hopefully have the chip by Monday. Like I said, "We'll see" but I sure aint holding my breath on this one.

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
1992 F150 XLT
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 03:53 AM
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Dave can be difficult to get on the phone because he is busy, I suggest emailing him. He is busy because he is good, plain and simple.
Alan

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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 07:58 AM Thread Starter
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Dave can be difficult to get on the phone because he is busy, I suggest emailing him. He is busy because he is good, plain and simple.
Alan
You aren't the first to tell me that my tune is in good hands. I kinda brainfarted too yesterday and just realized the Carlisle Show is going on this weekend so Bill Evanhoff is out of the office until Monday and Dave may very well be also.

Eh it's cool. The suspense is killing me though because I really hope this can be fixed in the tune.

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-07-2010, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I talk to the tuner tomorrow because he is in Nebraska currently. The chip is awaiting his arrival.

Here is my view now as I have troubleshooted and gone through the elimination process:

I HIGHLY doubt that the tune is going to solve this issue but rather cause me more of a headache and loss of performance if the lock-up schedule and such is messed with too much. Pressure changes in the tune will do nothing. The pressure has already been bumped up a tad as it is, and I am not ready to start wrecking stuff by jacking the pressure up anyways, so that is out of the question. Quite frankly, I like the way the tune is already and it responds well. The car is definitely BORING right now without the chip.

My only other glimmer of hope that I can see is a faulty separator plate kit or a faulty install of the kit. If it is not valve body related, guess what folks? It's in the damn tranny. End of story.

Thank you everyone for your input. I'm on my own now, just as I was when the fruit loop did the install for me on all this stuff. I have felt very alone, discouraged, and ignored by this guy for the last month. You live. You learn.

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 01:20 AM
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Find a stock seperator plate or valve body and start over with that part? It wouldn't be a big cost and might rule out alot and then you know for sure this time it's right...

Ϣr

1994 Lincoln Mark VIII
4.6L DOHC; meter4it.com chase/sequential tail lights; 20" Giovanna Dalars; 4.30 gears; FRPP Track-Lok; SCT tuned; Baumann ReCal; Addco bars; Cobra brakes...

RIP - '86 Mark VII LSC
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 01:41 AM Thread Starter
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Find a stock seperator plate or valve body and start over with that part? It wouldn't be a big cost and might rule out alot and then you know for sure this time it's right...
I agree entirely. And at this point, unless something groundbreaking or miraculous happens in the revised tune, the valve body will be my one last and only resort before I may inevitably have to go to AAMCO for a properly working transmission. I know my car, and this just isn't right.

It's NOT the converter, it's NOT the solenoids, it's NOT the sensors on the side of the case, and that I do know, because all of that was replaced. As much as I hate to say it, I also believe it's NOT the tune. This high stall converter that I have would operate just fine even on factory tune other than an awkward shift schedule. So, at this point, I am anticipating a valve body drop in the near future. It seems to me to be something IN the transmission that is tangible evidence that a transmission tech can put their hands on physically and not anything other than that.

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
1992 F150 XLT
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 02:31 PM
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Did you put new gaskets on the VB?
If you put a 01+ gasket on the 92-00 vb, the OD servo is no bleeding off the top side before the 3-4 shift valve releases the fwd clutch - eventually the servo looses pressure out of leaks, ect. and applies. THe 01 gasket has a revised plate with a hole, vs the old with a slit in the gasket.

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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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Did you put new gaskets on the VB?
If you put a 01+ gasket on the 92-00 vb, the OD servo is no bleeding off the top side before the 3-4 shift valve releases the fwd clutch - eventually the servo looses pressure out of leaks, ect. and applies. THe 01 gasket has a revised plate with a hole, vs the old with a slit in the gasket.
This is the kit that I bought:

http://supercoupeperformance.com/par...spx?partId=228

It comes with matching gaskets and is apparently for 96+ 4R70Ws. The transmission in my car is the same as the original with the valve body out of my original transmission.

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-2010, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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Update guys. I was pleasantly surprised when I got the chip back on Saturday. My tuner totally re-wrote the tune. I told Bill to let the tuner know on the original tune to leave the transmission parameters stock. The tuner saw this as a problem. Ever since Saturday morning when I put the chip in, I have had NO neutralizing condition in the transmission. I still have a weird momentary dip in rpms into overdrive but it is barely noticeable at all and is definitely not a neutralizing condition of any sort like I had before. Probably just the converter locking.

Now it's time for some Mickey Thompsons and some 1/4 mile runs as soon as I get the chance. Oh yeah, the new tune has me saying holy crap! 3rd gear chirp just yesterday.

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC Supercharged
1992 F150 XLT
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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-2010, 08:39 PM
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Great to hear!

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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-2010, 09:15 PM
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Excellent!

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Please do not send me messages on forums they are too hard to keep up with and I don't check in very often anymore call me at 513 898-1580 or email me alan at dirtydogperformance.com
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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-2010, 11:48 PM
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Glad you got it figured out

Ϣr

1994 Lincoln Mark VIII
4.6L DOHC; meter4it.com chase/sequential tail lights; 20" Giovanna Dalars; 4.30 gears; FRPP Track-Lok; SCT tuned; Baumann ReCal; Addco bars; Cobra brakes...

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