TC still shuddering after Mercon V - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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TC still shuddering after Mercon V

Hello,

So I still get the shudder. It shudders in 3rd and 4th when it is bogged down with little throttle. I just changed out the fluid in the tc and trans with mercon v. Its not as bad but it is still there. Its not really hot out today either. I had a previous 94 t bird in this same town 15 years ago and never had problems with any type of trans shudder on the hottest of days and I drove the crap out of that car. I am actually amazed at how well the tranny held up in that car. So the whole putting a trans cooler thing in does not give me much confidence that it will solve the problem even though I am still going to put one in.

I tapped the brakes to see if it was the tc and it is. It went up in revs when the tc unlocked and the shudder disappeared instantly. So what I am curious about is how does a tc go bad and is that the only problem? Or is that the problem at all? When I am wot there is no shudder. The car never slips it just shudders when I am tipping in the throttle. So is this just as simple as swapping out the tc or is it more complicated?

Also when it shudders what is being damaged? Are clutch plates being damaged?

Edit so I did some searching on the interweb and found this article:

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/203

So it looks like the problem is the torque converter clutch. Am I right?



Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Jon Hall; 09-09-2013 at 10:37 PM.
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 02:10 AM
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Are you absolutely sure it couldn't be a little misfire in the engine? When I'm going up a slight grade with the engine in a higher gear and at a lower RPM sometimes I get some jumpiness if I give it some throttle. It's better or worse with different brands of fuel. Probably needs new plug wires.
Just a thought.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 09:12 AM Thread Starter
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Yes. Because when I tap the breaks while keeping the throttle at the same position the shudder goes away.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 12:12 PM
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks.

So does the clutch lock up on 3rd and 4th?

What I am trying to understand is why does it happen in 3rd and 4th but not 2nd.

From my novice understanding the clutch locks up in 4th. Is our tc different?
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 12:26 PM
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In a stock program lockup is commanded for 3rd and 4th gear but not 2nd. It does not lock up at WOT.

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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Well that about explains everything. Thanks guys. You really are a big help.

Anyone have any recommendations on tc? Know a good place to buy one?
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 12:57 PM
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If you're looking for an aftermarket TC or more stall I suggest Circle D or Precision Industries.

At the very least I'd suggest getting a TC (and flex plate) from a Mark VIII/Mustang GT/Marauder. The stall is slightly higher and really helps the car when moving around in the city.

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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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So look for a converter with a 2200 - 2500 Stall?
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hall View Post
So look for a converter with a 2200 - 2500 Stall?
You go higher if you got the testi's, but remember that the higher you go, the smaller it needs to be so it won't feel sluggish when it's not locked up.
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 04:37 PM
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Yeah, pony up the cash for a good converter. I'd suggest 3000+ RPM stall converter at 11" or less in size. I got a 9.5" 3800 stall triple plate Dirty Dog converter that I'm getting ready to have installed. I can't wait.

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
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Now my motor is stock and I wont be doing anything to it for a while. Is 3000 to high a stall for the stock motor?

I am not looking for a drag setup. I just want a really good daily driver.

One more Curious George question if I may. So when I am wot is there any wear on the tcc? Or is the tcc only really active when full lock is being applied? ty

Last edited by Jon Hall; 09-10-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 06:28 PM
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Only if it is not commanded to lock. You need a tune to make it lock in 2nd gear, and to have more adequate lockup in 3rd and 4th.
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 06:31 PM
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The more the clutch slips, the more it wears. It wears the most as it applies and disengages. The way to reduce the slip during application and release is to make the transitions happen more quickly - but the side effect is there is a harsh jerk on the driveline which wears out those components more quickly.

It's a delicate balancing act, especially for a street car.

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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah I am just going to park it until I get the new tc put in. There were no signs of metal flakes or clutch material when the fluid was changed. I think it is in the beginning stages of failure. (The TC.)

I really don't want to harm the transmission because it actually feels good apart from the tc shudder.

Found a reputable transmission guy to do the work. I'll have him swap out the actuators at the same time. Just need to find a tc now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar maestro View Post
Only if it is not commanded to lock. You need a tune to make it lock in 2nd gear, and to have more adequate lockup in 3rd and 4th.
Can a good transmission shop tune my cars pc?

Last edited by Rodeo Joe; 09-11-2013 at 02:40 AM. Reason: Merged posts
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-14-2013, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
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Yes. Because when I tap the breaks while keeping the throttle at the same position the shudder goes away.
IMO still quite likely Plugs & Wires.

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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-14-2013, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
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Well they do look a little old. So I will swap them out and see if there is any difference. One more thing to check off the list before I invest serious money.
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-15-2013, 05:02 PM
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I have a Mark VIII 11.25" converter in mine and it works great - stall is around 2400 rpm.

I can put the car in 2nd, hold the brakes hard, floor the accelerator and the tack gets to about 2500.
I've ridden in cars with higher stall converters and they roll fine. Don't think the car won't move before the stall because that simply isn't the case. As some others here already told you, the smaller the converter the better depending on what range stall you want. There are big converters (12") with 2500-3000 stalls available, but what they do to the converter isn't good for driveability.

Get a 10" or 9.5" converter rated around 3000 rpm if you want performance AND driveability - you will be happy with it.

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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-16-2013, 01:09 AM
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Don't count the bird out just yet. My TC had a fairly bad shudder until I installed a Jerry Chip that happened to increase the transmission line pressure and the shudder pretty much vanished. I did drive with that shudder for about 2 years before getting the chip and that was almost 4 years ago. Even without the chip I'm sure you won't have a dead car too soon as long as you learn where it shudders and give it gas BEFORE it happens. When that car had the shudder it would do it in the same locations almost everytime so as long as I would turn OD off or give it gas before the incline everything was fine.

-Randy-
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-17-2013, 02:00 PM
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OEM ford converter clutches are crappy anyway if it has over 75k on it it's probably peeling off. I went through everything on my 95 when I bought it at 77k miles I did the lockup mods to the valvebody put fresh mercon V in it, tuned it up, cleaned the egr,etc....It would go away for a bit it seemed then come right back. When I cut the converter open I found the clutch was peeled halfway off.
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-17-2013, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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Did you put a new converter on a stock engine and trans? If so which one was it?
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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-17-2013, 10:18 PM
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At the time I just rebuilt the stock converter, this was before I started building performance converters at all. Months later I started playing musical converters with the car testing custom setups, but in the first place it was just a stock replacement. I guess it was about 2 or 3 months later that I broke the roller clutch in the transmission and went through the transmission. Then I maxed out the stall on a 12 inch converter, which later got sold to someone on these forums. The I built a markVIII converter which again later got sold to someone on these forums. Then I started building 10 inch units and having lots of fun with it.
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