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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2014, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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Any idea what might have cause this?

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I had a vibration mainly at idle and sometimes lower rpms. It started to make a light sound of metal on metal (almost like a chime). Thinking it was a broken flex plate I dropped the trans and found this. I decided to replace the entire trans with a rebuilt "upgraded" one but after about a year and roughly 10k miles it seems to be making the same sound again. I believe it's referred to as the pump assembly support. This was in a 1999 F150 4.6l regular cab 4x4 Flareside and truck still has under 100k on it.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2014, 07:01 AM
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Did you reuse your existing torque converter or did you use a new one or a used one that came with the new transmission?

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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2014, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
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All new including flex plate with new trans install and a slightly higher stall on the converter than stock. I can't say for sure this happened again (but is sounding like it) but was really curious as to why it did happen originally.

Guessing maybe this is called the "stator" as a more technical term. I don't tow or haul with this truck either. After doing some research it seems some really high HP vehicles have this issue and line pressure was tossed around.

Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 02-18-2014 at 08:22 AM. Reason: Merge posts
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2014, 09:12 AM
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The broken part in the photo is called the stator support. It's what the stator rides on. The smaller inner shaft, and splines is the turbine shaft, or input shaft.

Here is a pic of an actual stator. The stator redirects fluid to hit the blades on the turbine at the outer edge of the blades during acceleration, and load. This enhances torque multiplication. When this occurs there is a roller one-way clutch as part of the stator that locks the stator to keep it from spinning. The splines on the stator support act as anchor points to lock the stator. Let up on the gas, and the stator free wheels on the stator support splines.

The most likely moment the stator supports fails is when it makes the transition from free wheeling to lock. Like during a hard launch.

The splines on the one-way clutch that mate with the splines on the stator support are easily visible in the photo.



The fix is to replace the front pump with a unit made in the USA, and using a pair of long nose snap ring pliers reach down into the torque converter, and make sure the stator free wheels in one direction smoothly, and locks immediately in the other direction.


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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2014, 05:28 PM
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I went through that very same thing last fall.

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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-19-2014, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94 Thunderbird XX View Post
I went through that very same thing last fall.
Yep, without a functioning stator the torque converter basically becomes a fluid coupling. Sluggish response with very poor acceleration. The same symptoms will occur if the stator one way clutch (sprag) fails, and doesn't hold the stator stationary. If the sprag sticks, and doesn't allow the stator to free wheel that will diminish engine braking.

Very early automatics had Fluid Couplings. First introduced in 1940 model year (domestic cars) from the Hydramatic Co., and available in Oldsmobile. The unit only has a turbine, and impeller with no stator. Later it was found that directing the fluid so that it hit the outer edge of the turbine blades greatly increases driveability, and performance.

The best way I can describe the dynamics of the stator is if you spray a stream of water from a garden hose at a bicycle pedal, the pedal will spin much faster with the same amount of force if you direct the stream at the outer edge of the pedal. In turn, if you direct the stream toward the center the pedal will slow, and eventually stop if you direct the stream at the center axis.

It's interesting to note on the subject of stators that the Pontiac/Olds Jet-Away automatic transmissions of the 1960's, the Super Turbine 300, (Buick) had a variable pitch stator. The stator blades angle of attack changed, control by a solenoid, and stator valve linked to the throttle. The stator actually has two wires coming out of it.

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Last edited by rushtonracing; 02-19-2014 at 04:38 AM.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-19-2014, 06:50 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 94 Thunderbird XX View Post
I went through that very same thing last fall.
I kinda hope it didn't go again but also hope it's not something more serious. I don't have the truck near me right now as my son has it out of state in college but from what he described it's the same symptoms as when it did fail prior. Vibration between 600-700 rpms and almost a "grinding type metal on metal" sound right at 900 rpms but makes no noises or vibrations driving down the road. Is it going to really damage anything to run it if it is broke again (not forever)? I really wanted to do the 5 speed swap but those seem to be hard to find as most V8 F150 4x4's are auto and the fact that it's a hydraulic clutch.

94 Thunderbird XX did you find the cause or you just figure it was a fluke thing? How much have you driven it since you fixed it?

Would just replacing the entire pump be the best/easiest option? Thanks for the info, I own 4 vehicles 3 manuals and 1 auto and really wish it was 4 manuals .
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-19-2014, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash7772
Any idea what might have caused this?
Neutral Drop much?




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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-19-2014, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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Neutral Drop much?




Rayo..
Lol at the pic and no..... do they make an upgraded one? Better/stronger metal? The truck is making more HP vs a stock one but nothing crazy. Dyno's around 185-190 at the wheels. It has ASP pulleys, Accel coils with Ford Racing wires, Flex-a-lite E-fan, Ford Racing cat-back, one step colder plugs, Air Force One intake (cold air not manifold). Also running 3.55 gears which are stock. The trans I put in (bought from Allstar Automotive in Denver) had the modified clutch pack, upgraded valve body, and higher stall converter.

"COMPLETE UPGRADED VALVE BODY AND STEEL PLANETARYS

ALL WEARABLE PARTS ARE REPLACED WITH NEW, AMERICAN MADE PARTS (NO FOREIGN MADE CRAP). .

THIS TRANSMISSION INCLUDES:

ADDED CLUTCHES AND SONNAX VALVES FOR HIGHER LINE PRESSURE AND BETTER SHIFTING, BANDS, GASKETS, SEALS, O RINGS, SEALING RINGS, BUSHINGS, FRICTIONS, LIP SEALS AND SOLENOIDS."
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-19-2014, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rushtonracing View Post
Yep, without a functioning stator the torque converter basically becomes a fluid coupling.

Without a stator, there is no torque multiplication. The Torque converter clutch can still physically lock up making it a mechanically driven component, otherwise when the TCC solenoid is off, the torque converter is still a fluid coupling device since the fluid is what actually drives the turbine.
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-19-2014, 09:00 PM
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4R70W Line Pressure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash7772 View Post
"COMPLETE UPGRADED VALVE BODY" "SONNAX VALVES FOR HIGHER LINE PRESSURE"
I'd say that's your answer right there..I'm willing to bet with that "upgraded" valve body..
They have the line pressure jacked up wayyy too high..

It might make it harder to accurately check the line pressure if there's broken bits in the transmission again..

That's where I would start though..

Quote:

AODE
Note: All pressure tap locations are clearly MARKED right on the case on AODE's & 4R70W's.

Main Line Pressure

In P/N, OD, D/2, 1 @ Idle Hot - 50 to 75 psi
In P/N, OD, D/2, 1 @ Stall Hot - 160 to 210 psi
In Reverse @ Idle Hot - 80 to 120 psi
In Reverse @ Stall Hot - 220 to 280 psi

EPC Pressure

In P/N, Rev., OD, D/2, 1 @ Idle Hot - 0 to 9 psi psi
In P/N, Rev., OD, D/2, 1 @ Stall Hot - 83 to 93 psi

Clutch Pressure

Note You can check for leaks in the Clutch/Band circuits by comparing them to Main Line Pressure. They should be within 10 psi of each other.

How To Check It

Install pressure gauge in line pressure tap.
Install a 2nd gauge in the clutch tap that you want to check.
Clutch/Band pressure should be within 10 psi of line pressure when the clutch is applied
In P/N, OD, D/2, 1 @ Stall Hot - 160 to 210 psi..This one's important..Do not exceed 220 psi!

If you're not familiar with the inner workings of the valve body, and line pressure is way too high..

It might just be easier for you to find a stock unmodified valve body..Then install that..That is of course if the transmission hasn't sharded itself already..

Good Luck Man!




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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-20-2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
Without a stator, there is no torque multiplication. The Torque converter clutch can still physically lock up making it a mechanically driven component, otherwise when the TCC solenoid is off, the torque converter is still a fluid coupling device since the fluid is what actually drives the turbine.
Yeah, it still is...

I was referring to what is known as an old type fluid couplings designed without a stator.

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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-20-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rushtonracing View Post
Yeah, it still is...

I was referring to what is known as an old type fluid couplings designed without a stator.
Thats like really old stuff. Like 50 years old.

I dont think a modified valve body would cause the stator support to break, unless the pump regulator was modified. The pump drives the torque converter.
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-20-2014, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash7772 View Post
94 Thunderbird XX did you find the cause or you just figure it was a fluke thing? How much have you driven it since you fixed it?
Never found the "cause", and it went without any warning. I replaced the entire trans because by almost pure luck I had happened to have found a very fresh rebuilt with upgraded internals for a really screaming deal.

I also took this as an opportunity to place the stock convertor in the same place I keep old coffee grounds, banana peels, beer cans, etc. and installed the Marauder converter/flexplate I had been sitting on for a few years.

And since I was right there anyway, I thought it foolish to change trans, converter, and flexplate without installing in a new rear main seal also. This is my Daily Driver, so I have driven it.....every day since. lol

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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-21-2014, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
Thats like really old stuff. Like 50 years old.

I dont think a modified valve body would cause the stator support to break, unless the pump regulator was modified. The pump drives the torque converter.
Make that 74 yrs. for the Olds.

Fluid couplings are still used in industrial machinery.




"The pump drives the torque converter."

The impeller is sometimes called "the pump", however, the front pump is driven by two female square slots on the end of the converter drive hub that mate with two male square tabs on the front pump external gear (one with teeth on the outer surface), or an annular gear (a gear shaped something like a starfish).





In closing, I tend to agree with 94 Thunderbird XX. Excessively high mainline pressure may cause harsh engagements, however, I don't think such would migrate to the stator support enough to cause it to snap. I'd say it more of a matter of mass production build spec' "acceptable limits", and quality control.

I have "ballooned" a converter to the point of catastrophic failure taking out everything, including the stator support. But I don't think this was the case either.

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2004 Tahoe 5.3 4x4
2008 Acadia Limited AWD

...still looking for a clean, low mileage, rust free 96/97 Thunderbird 4.6
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-21-2014, 12:59 PM
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It looks like a balance issue to me.

Every time there is something out of balance and a lot of vibration, something fails...

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