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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-04-2014, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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accumulator springs

I plan on changing my accumulators soon and wanted to know if there would be any benefit in leaving out the 2-3 spring and the 1-2 bottom spring WITHOUT doing a jmod. I already have a tune that allows me to regulate the shift pressures but it doesn't allow for much change and its not really beneficial right now due to the poor accumulators/springs.

if leaving out springs are not a good idea, could someone advise me as to which springs I could swap in place of the stock ones?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

1995 Tbird 4.6 sohc
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-04-2014, 07:33 PM
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I'm not sure of the effects it has. But I had a broken 1-2 spring that I never fixed on my 96 and never had any issues other than an awesome tire barking shift under WOT. I guess it never bothered me enough to fix. I considered just pulling the 1-2 spring on my 95 because I never really get on it long enough to get out of second.

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-04-2014, 07:44 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply. So you just removed the broken spring and did not replace it?

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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-04-2014, 09:42 PM
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I never fixed it. I may end up actually pulling mine also, I'd like to do the j-mod but the bird don't sit still long enought being a DD.

95 Silver Frost. 2.5" Straight Pipe, 16" Black XR-7 wheels, Silencer Delete, Homeade CAI (RichardM Clone), PowerStop Drilled/ Slotted Rotors, 97 Console. Awaiting Install, 96/7 Headlights and Tails.

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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-04-2014, 09:44 PM
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When I say mine I mean my current bird, not the one that actually had the broken spring. Shes loooong gone

95 Silver Frost. 2.5" Straight Pipe, 16" Black XR-7 wheels, Silencer Delete, Homeade CAI (RichardM Clone), PowerStop Drilled/ Slotted Rotors, 97 Console. Awaiting Install, 96/7 Headlights and Tails.

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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-04-2014, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks. I'm in the same boat.

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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-05-2014, 04:40 AM
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You need to drop the valve body to get to the 2-3 accumulator anyway, you're half way there!

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-05-2014, 08:09 AM
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I agree. If one is in that far you might as well do the j-mod.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything to do with the accumulators themselves that would change their cushioning effects. It's all in the springs. What tension spring, or no spring, depends on application. Chirps all the time, or just a more positive shift.

Something else I'd like to mention on '95 trans is the valve body. Specifically, the pressure regulator valve, and bore wearing, causing EPC (electronic pressure control) fluid to leak to exhaust causing poor mainline pressure rise. This is often accompanied by a buzzing noise.

This may be the reason you are unable to regulate "shift pressure" very much.

One can purchase an upgraded valve body from vendors on this site.

Or, there are over sized valves and reamers to do it yourself. However, all the valves would need to be removed before reaming the pressure regulator valve bore with a good size drill press. And the kit to do this is sometimes more than the cost of one already done.

Lastly, a trans cooler.

To recap:
1.) A j-mod tailored to your specifics. Talk to a vendor from this site.
2.) An upgraded valve body.
3.) A trans cooler.

I think this is reasonable for a '95 trans. Anymore, and I would swap to a later model.

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Last edited by rushtonracing; 04-05-2014 at 09:00 AM.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-05-2014, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice. i was figuring the accumulators were leaking based off the symptoms and problems listed in the transmission articles that my trans has been showing for a while. I believe its just the tune that will only allow for so much adjustment and not a bad pressure regulator valve. I only say that because I had an electronic shift kit on it and it boosted the pressure quite a bit. Had my neck jerking. But I will look into everything once I have it open. I just want to know if a perfectly working transmission had anything to gain from removing the 1-2 bottom spring and 2-3 spring only.

to add, trans has been rebuilt before and the car is my DD.

oh yea and I already have a cooler too


Thanks

1995 Tbird 4.6 sohc

Last edited by Rodeo Joe; 04-06-2014 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Merged posts
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-05-2014, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamler
I just want to know if a perfectly working transmission had anything to gain from removing the 1-2 bottom spring and 2-3 spring only.
I will not recommend doing this.

Here is a link to a thread that I have found helpful in better understanding 4r70w accumulators.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.p...ht=accumulator

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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-06-2014, 10:39 AM
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I'm writing a teardown on that transmission, with pix to post up soon.

The transmission did not recover in any way after I "repaired"it, lol. The damage was already done.

During the teardown, I noticed that The 'special' 2-3 accumulator with all the o-rings was stuck in the bore; had to use vicegrips and a slide hammer to get it out.

Some additional notes:

The brown upper spring in the 1-2 will bark the 1-2 every time, even at 10mph. In a school zone, no less...

If you use the brown upper, use a lower spring as well. It will soften it a bit.

If you remove the 2-3 spring, add the sonnax plate at a minimum.
Only the newer trannys are missing this plate; I only buy 02's, because you get the best parts without disassembly being required. (03 and up will be missing the taillshaft gears.)

If you are going to be going over 127.5mph, get the add-in tune file from your tuner.
If he doesn't know what you mean, get a new tuner.
Don Lasota is the best, imho.

There are Dozens of reasons not to do this on the street; I was on a closed runway. I hope to be able to do that again, to test the fix.

I have a datalog of the failure; it apparently shifted down to 3rd, then back to 4th at 127.5mph, and may have went for 2nd; it was pertty violent.

I have looked into the different clutch plates; the Alto red's are supposed to be better than stock, and the price seems to confirm that, lol.

Anyone built one with those?

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-06-2014, 01:09 PM
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That's some good info'. Thanks for posting.

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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-06-2014, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I'm writing a teardown on that transmission, with pix to post up soon.

The transmission did not recover in any way after I "repaired"it, lol. The damage was already done.

During the teardown, I noticed that The 'special' 2-3 accumulator with all the o-rings was stuck in the bore; had to use vicegrips and a slide hammer to get it out.

Some additional notes:

The brown upper spring in the 1-2 will bark the 1-2 every time, even at 10mph. In a school zone, no less...

If you use the brown upper, use a lower spring as well. It will soften it a bit.

If you remove the 2-3 spring, add the sonnax plate at a minimum.
Only the newer trannys are missing this plate; I only buy 02's, because you get the best parts without disassembly being required. (03 and up will be missing the taillshaft gears.)

If you are going to be going over 127.5mph, get the add-in tune file from your tuner.
If he doesn't know what you mean, get a new tuner.
Don Lasota is the best, imho.

There are Dozens of reasons not to do this on the street; I was on a closed runway. I hope to be able to do that again, to test the fix.

I have a datalog of the failure; it apparently shifted down to 3rd, then back to 4th at 127.5mph, and may have went for 2nd; it was pertty violent.

I have looked into the different clutch plates; the Alto red's are supposed to be better than stock, and the price seems to confirm that, lol.

Anyone built one with those?
Yes I built one with alto reds for a friend's cobra 4r75 build. They stack a bit on the thin side compared to the OEM friction material from what I remember. His stang is using a circle d 3800 stall multi disk converter and a Bauman controller. 25,000 miles on it so far. Also no third reinforcement plate I used the PACT thick plate instead. So far so good. All race miles with a vortech.

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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-06-2014, 06:40 PM
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I measured the important holes in the thick plate I bought, and all were at or slightly above the Jmod values; I didn't change a thing.

On a full race setup, I'd think the brown upper spring alone would be a good choice; it makes the shift happen like side-stepping the clutch, lol.

I had it go "Erk!" as I was pulling away from an officer directing traffic in a school zone at about 10mph once; NOT good...

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-10-2014, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Well looks like I'm doing the JMOD on the tbird. Thanks everyone for your knowledge and wisdom. Ill updated on how it goes.

Thanks,

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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-13-2014, 07:01 AM
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I also plan to do a j-mod.

Think I'll also add this too.

http://www.sonnax.com/parts/2397

It may, or may not, help. Depending on how bad the bore is worn.

But, the pressure regulator valve is $16.95, and the boost valve, and sleeve is about $20.00 so I think I'll give it a try.

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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-13-2014, 07:49 PM
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I'm also getting ready to do the JMod , I've been considering getting this :
http://www.sonnax.com/parts/3035
It's $70.00 ...couple extra options , is it worth the extra $30.00 ? Hate to get it a part and see something wrong that the kit might help me with.
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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-13-2014, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
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I'm also getting ready to do the JMod , I've been considering getting this :
http://www.sonnax.com/parts/3035
It's $70.00 ...couple extra options , is it worth the extra $30.00 ? Hate to get it a part and see something wrong that the kit might help me with.
Hay, cool, thanks for the link!

Removal of the trans, and complete tear down of components is necessary to complete the upgrades of that entire kit. Hence, one would need a master overhaul kit too. Also, installing a new/better converter would be logical.

Given these facts of the matter, I think if I was going to do a complete overhaul, I'd scrap the '95, and install a rebuilt/j-modded later model trans. Grog6 mentioned up to '02.

On the other hand, I suppose I could purchase that kit, and install all the upgrades I could with the trans still on the car.

So lets see..

1.) The Sure Cure kit.
2.) A J-mod kit.
3.) A trans cooler.


I've often wondered, other than the valve body, what makes later model trans superior over the 95 and older trans?

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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-14-2014, 11:21 AM
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The later transmissions, 98 and up, have a mechanical diode instead of a one way roller clutch. Even though mine has not failed, even after lots of abuse, they tend to fail over time more often than a mechanical diode. The mechanical diode can also handle more power.

The 96 and later 4r70w's have better transmission pans. The design of the earlier pans can cause oil starvation on sharp left or right hand turns, I can't remember which direction. I do believe the later pans hold more oil too.

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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-14-2014, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rushtonracing View Post
...I've often wondered, other than the valve body, what makes later model trans superior over the 95 and older trans?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgino96tbird46 View Post
The later transmissions, 98 and up, have a mechanical diode instead of a one way roller clutch. ...

The 96 and later 4r70w's have better transmission pans. The design of the earlier pans can cause oil starvation on sharp left or right hand turns, I can't remember which direction. I do believe the later pans hold more oil too.
Having one of each (97 and 02) apart, there are changes in the bearings, gasket, fluid passages, valve body circuits, snap rings, accumulators; Lots of changes from the early ones.
These 02 trannys are good upgrades.

We cant use one later than 02 without mods; mods that involve changing the tail shaft, the last part out of the case.
The later you go after that, the more there is to change.

If you want a new stock transmission for a fairly stock MN12, buy a 4R70W out of an '02 Gran Marquis with low mileage.
Gran Marquis' with rear end and side damage are pretty common here...
Crown Vics are OK, as long as non-police; they tend to get pounded on more, tho.

For stock use, there is absolutely nothing you need to do to it, and it will work very well. The TC is better than stock as well.

You need to add the transmission to the tune; there's a value file, as well as the 127.5mph shift thing. (Depending on your tire/speedo gears, 80mph can be 127.5mph unintentionally. 195/35-15 tires will not work, lol.)

My current tune shifts like a manual; TC locked in 2nd and 3rd. Shifting into 4th at wot with the TC locked breaks the tranny's direct clutch, BTW.

Without a tune, the 02 tranny will act strange shifting into 4th at no throttle. It's not a problem, just noticeable.

Search my posts about it; I started here as a complete noob. At this point, I've changed all 3 cars to 02 trannys, reworked a valvebody successfully, and am rebuilding my first one.

If you want a built tranny, I would call someone; rebuilding one of these yourself is a study in cleanliness, and a mistake is ~$400.
One little thread from a rag will kill it, if it's in the wrong spot.

EDIT: BTW, I'm mixed on the VB being a total upgrade; they eliminated a plate that is needed, and eliminated a backout circuit that may have contributed to the dimples in my separator plate...
.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 02:30 PM
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Thank you Mgino96tbird46, and Grog6 for posting answers to my question.

I'm a little pressed for time at the moment, but I will respond to your answers later, as I have a few more questions I'd like to ask.

In the meantime, I found this video of performing a J-mod on a '05 trans that I found helpful in becoming familiar with 4r70w's. The vast majority of my experience in automatic trans, and trans axles, is pre-electronic units. Too many to possibly remember them all, but many: thm 350, 400, 125, 440, Ford c-4, c-6, Torqueflight, 904, 727...Even did a old FoMoCo cast iron two speed FMX years, and years ago.


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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Having one of each (97 and 02) apart, there are changes in the bearings, gasket, fluid passages, valve body circuits, snap rings, accumulators; Lots of changes from the early ones.
These 02 trannys are good upgrades.

We cant use one later than 02 without mods; mods that involve changing the tail shaft, the last part out of the case.
The later you go after that, the more there is to change.

If you want a new stock transmission for a fairly stock MN12, buy a 4R70W out of an '02 Gran Marquis with low mileage.
Gran Marquis' with rear end and side damage are pretty common here...
Crown Vics are OK, as long as non-police; they tend to get pounded on more, tho.

For stock use, there is absolutely nothing you need to do to it, and it will work very well. The TC is better than stock as well.

You need to add the transmission to the tune; there's a value file, as well as the 127.5mph shift thing. (Depending on your tire/speedo gears, 80mph can be 127.5mph unintentionally. 195/35-15 tires will not work, lol.)

My current tune shifts like a manual; TC locked in 2nd and 3rd. Shifting into 4th at wot with the TC locked breaks the tranny's direct clutch, BTW.

Without a tune, the 02 tranny will act strange shifting into 4th at no throttle. It's not a problem, just noticeable.

Search my posts about it; I started here as a complete noob. At this point, I've changed all 3 cars to 02 trannys, reworked a valvebody successfully, and am rebuilding my first one.

If you want a built tranny, I would call someone; rebuilding one of these yourself is a study in cleanliness, and a mistake is ~$400.
One little thread from a rag will kill it, if it's in the wrong spot.

EDIT: BTW, I'm mixed on the VB being a total upgrade; they eliminated a plate that is needed, and eliminated a backout circuit that may have contributed to the dimples in my separator plate...
.
To use an '02 4r70w trans in my '95, I would need to change the flex plate, re-pin an '02 transmission wiring harness to match the '95 pcm, and install the '95 tcc solenoid into the '02 trans. Is this correct?

And/or is there anything else needed?

I'm I correct to understand you that a tune is not needed to run the '02?

What about using a 4r75w transmission? Is this possible? And if so, would there be any advantage to such a swap? Or, perhaps, it wouldn't be worth all the changes needed in a stock car like my 'bird?

1995 Thunderbird LX 4.6l 97 Headlamps/Hood All Red Tails Muffler/Resonator Delete
2004 Tahoe 5.3 4x4
2008 Acadia Limited AWD

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhamler View Post
I plan on changing my accumulators soon and wanted to know if there would be any benefit in leaving out the 2-3 spring and the 1-2 bottom spring WITHOUT doing a jmod. I already have a tune that allows me to regulate the shift pressures but it doesn't allow for much change and its not really beneficial right now due to the poor accumulators/springs.

if leaving out springs are not a good idea, could someone advise me as to which springs I could swap in place of the stock ones?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Sent you a PM.

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rushtonracing View Post
To use an '02 4r70w trans in my '95, I would need to change the flex plate, re-pin an '02 transmission wiring harness to match the '95 pcm, and install the '95 tcc solenoid into the '02 trans. Is this correct?

And/or is there anything else needed?

I'm I correct to understand you that a tune is not needed to run the '02?

What about using a 4r75w transmission? Is this possible? And if so, would there be any advantage to such a swap? Or, perhaps, it wouldn't be worth all the changes needed in a stock car like my 'bird?
I don't own a 95, so IDK. Sorry. Search, it's here somewhere.

You do not have to tune, but 3-4 at no throttle feels strange; search my posts about it.

4R75 has to have parts swapped out of an older tranny to work; ask DirtyDog.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-18-2014, 12:02 AM
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Thanks Grog6 for the prompt reply.

I will continue to search, and research what all is involved in such a swap.

At 154,000 miles I know it is only a matter of time until such an upgrade will be needed.

1995 Thunderbird LX 4.6l 97 Headlamps/Hood All Red Tails Muffler/Resonator Delete
2004 Tahoe 5.3 4x4
2008 Acadia Limited AWD

...still looking for a clean, low mileage, rust free 96/97 Thunderbird 4.6
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-19-2014, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
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Jmod issues

Hey everyone, today I performed the jmod on my 1995 tbiird, using the less then 300 hp setting. I changed the accumulators and springs and left the 2-3 spring out. 1-2 and 2-3 shift nice and crisp under normal driving and much snappier when heavy on the gas. The only problem is the overdrive, it engages but it does it really slow and it feels like the brakes are being applied slightly, then it shifts into overdrive. While in overdrive there is no issue, nor is there any issue with downshifting from overdrive to 3rd. I followed all the directions given. The only thing i didnt do was drill holes #9 and #11 and maybe one other because they where already bigger then the specs listed.

Does any one have a clue as to what the problem may be? This really sucks because it shifts so amazing until I go to overdrive. Any good advice would be greatly appreciated. Oh and also the fluid is up to level.

Thanks

1995 Tbird 4.6 sohc
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-20-2014, 11:12 AM
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There's an overlap of two operations when you shift from 3rd to 4th; the forward clutch is releasing, and the OD band is applying.

It sounds like the overlap is too long; that would mean the exhaust hole for the forward clutch is too small, or the OD Band fill is too big, IIRC.

I found this link to the hole functions...

http://www.atra.com/manuals/individu...2/2002-129.pdf

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-20-2014, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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thanks for the reply. I can't open that link for some reason on my tablet so ill have to check it when I get home.

1995 Tbird 4.6 sohc
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-20-2014, 09:48 PM
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As Grog6 mentions, the forward clutch releases and the OD band is applied to make OD happen.

I would drill holes 9 and 11 anyway. also make sure slot #1 is enlarged.

its also possible the OD pin bore in the case is worn and causing the OD band to drag.

http://www.sonnax.com/parts/2379

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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-20-2014, 10:01 PM
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I was thinking that OD servo pin might be the problem too.

That pin kit has an optional washer that Sonnax says will pre-load the accumulator spring giving a firmer 3-4 shift.

1995 Thunderbird LX 4.6l 97 Headlamps/Hood All Red Tails Muffler/Resonator Delete
2004 Tahoe 5.3 4x4
2008 Acadia Limited AWD

...still looking for a clean, low mileage, rust free 96/97 Thunderbird 4.6
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