please help a guy out :( manual 1st but no auto 1st?? - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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please help a guy out :( manual 1st but no auto 1st??

hey guys. sorry to make this my first post but i am utterly lost about what to do.
im pretty familure with these 4r70w's but no expert. trans in question is a 4r70 out of a 98 lincoln mark viii. trans was supposedly a good running trans. i went through it. replaced the seals, clutches, and steals. added extra clutches. performed the j mod on the valve body. installed the trans in a 93 fox body behind a 5.0 coyote engine. i have a baumann controller running it. the problem is i have 2nd,3rd,4th gears with no issue. each shift is solid and great. but the car always starts out in 2nd. if i put it in MANUAL 1st. i get first. but in drive i get second gear starts. the control is comanding 1st gear and the SS1 IS energizing but im not getting 1st.
have replaced and verified the solenoids are working and sealing when energized. so here is what i DO know. its not the controler, the wiring, or the solenoids. also i DO have 4th so i know ss1 is working. another trans guy said maybe i have the planetary one way clutch on backward. so i tore the trans apart again and verified it IS installed correctly.

soooooooooo my question is. \

why in gods name do i have a perfect manual 1st gear but no automatic 1st gear. im lost.... please help as i cannot find anyone who can figure this out..
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 09:02 PM
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If you manually place it in second, it will not hit 1st.

Drive should start from 1st.

Have you datalogged it to confirm it's commanding first?

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 09:55 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
If you manually place it in second, it will not hit 1st.

Drive should start from 1st.

Have you datalogged it to confirm it's commanding first?
Yes i have datalogged it. It is commanding first in the software.i verifed that the controller is in fact grounding out ss1. But it still is in 2nd at that time. With the shifter in manual 2 i get second gear. With it in manual 1 i get 1st gear. But when in drive i get second gear starts dispite the controller commanding 1st
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Blk00gtvert View Post
hey guys. sorry to make this my first post but i am utterly lost about what to do.
im pretty familure with these 4r70w's but no expert. trans in question is a 4r70 out of a 98 lincoln mark viii. trans was supposedly a good running trans. i went through it. replaced the seals, clutches, and steals. added extra clutches. performed the j mod on the valve body. installed the trans in a 93 fox body behind a 5.0 coyote engine. i have a baumann controller running it. the problem is i have 2nd,3rd,4th gears with no issue. each shift is solid and great. but the car always starts out in 2nd. if i put it in MANUAL 1st. i get first. but in drive i get second gear starts. the control is comanding 1st gear and the SS1 IS energizing but im not getting 1st.
have replaced and verified the solenoids are working and sealing when energized. so here is what i DO know. its not the controler, the wiring, or the solenoids. also i DO have 4th so i know ss1 is working. another trans guy said maybe i have the planetary one way clutch on backward. so i tore the trans apart again and verified it IS installed correctly.

soooooooooo my question is. \

why in gods name do i have a perfect manual 1st gear but no automatic 1st gear. im lost.... please help as i cannot find anyone who can figure this out..
In first gear (D) the the Forward Clutch is applied, and the Planetary/Low One-Way Clutch is holding.

In first gear (Manual Low) the Forward Clutch is applied, the Low/Reverse Band is applied, and the Planetary/Low One-Way Clutch is holding.

If you have first gear only in Manual Low, and not in Drive, it means the Planetary/Low One-Way Clutch is not holding in first gear (D).

I realize that you stated you double check that the One Way Clutch is installed in the correct direction, however, it could be that the cylinder shaped roller bearings, and "springs" are improperly placed in the cage, (their proper orientation is backwards) or the Planetary anchor points that hold the clutch from rotating in one direction are worn so much as to allow the clutch to free wheel in both directions.

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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 06:46 AM Thread Starter
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In first gear (D) the the Forward Clutch is applied, and the Planetary/Low One-Way Clutch is holding.

In first gear (Manual Low) the Forward Clutch is applied, the Low/Reverse Band is applied, and the Planetary/Low One-Way Clutch is holding.

If you have first gear only in Manual Low, and not in Drive, it means the Planetary/Low One-Way Clutch is not holding in first gear (D).

I realize that you stated you double check that the One Way Clutch is installed in the correct direction, however, it could be that the cylinder shaped roller bearings, and "springs" are improperly placed in the cage, (their proper orientation is backwards) or the Planetary anchor points that hold the clutch from rotating in one direction are worn so much as to allow the clutch to free wheel in both directions.
So... i pulled it all apart and verified it was in correctly and rotates to the left but locks to the right. But what your saying is maybe when its under load its slipping? So basically i shoul try replacing that oneway?
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 08:14 AM
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The reverse band being applied prevents the engine from returning to idle when you let your foot off the gas, giving you engine braking. I don't think there's an issue with the clutches or planetiaries, it sounds more like a valve body issue.

Are all the check balls in place?

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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by theterminator93 View Post
The reverse band being applied prevents the engine from returning to idle when you let your foot off the gas, giving you engine braking. I don't think there's an issue with the clutches or planetiaries, it sounds more like a valve body issue.

Are all the check balls in place?


all 8 check balls are in place and free

im thinking the same thing. but what can be applying 1st in man but not in drive?
it was my understanding that both man and auto 1st us the solenoid and the 1-2 shift valve. so what changes...
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 03:50 PM
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AFAIK, the only difference is the position of the MLPS and the manual shift valve (excluding the application of the reverse band).

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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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AFAIK, the only difference is the position of the MLPS and the manual shift valve (excluding the application of the reverse band).


so i guess there has to be something wrong with the valve body. maybe its bleeding off pressure or somthing but when the manual shift valve it all the way in the 1 position its helping seal it up?
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 09:20 PM
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Looking at the diagrams, the Only difference is what is holding the reverse/low drum to the case.

In manual 1st, its the low/reverse band; otherwise, it's the one-way clutch.

The one-way won't hold near the power that both parts together will; I bet it's wasted.

A 98 tranny might or might not have the mech diode 1wy clutch; I'd make sure you upgrade while you're apart again.

BTW, a search for "4R70W power flow" turned up a pdf that shows all the different transmissions' power flow diagrams in all their gears.

DL it before it disappears.

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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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Looking at the diagrams, the Only difference is what is holding the reverse/low drum to the case.

In manual 1st, its the low/reverse band; otherwise, it's the one-way clutch.

The one-way won't hold near the power that both parts together will; I bet it's wasted.

A 98 tranny might or might not have the mech diode 1wy clutch; I'd make sure you upgrade while you're apart again.

BTW, a search for "4R70W power flow" turned up a pdf that shows all the different transmissions' power flow diagrams in all their gears.

DL it before it disappears.

Hmmmmm. We might have. Someyhing here. Ill post up some pics tomorrow. All i did was verify it rotated one way and lock the other. But i didnt see any wear on it but it possibly could be slipping without me knowing it...
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 01:24 AM
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So... i pulled it all apart and verified it was in correctly and rotates to the left but locks to the right. But what your saying is maybe when its under load its slipping? So basically i shoul try replacing that oneway?
Something else to check is to verify that the snap ring retainer that holds the one way clutch in place is in its proper groove, and that it firmly keeps the clutch held in the planetary assembly. That the snap ring is not popping out of place, and that there is no slop.

Yes, it could be slipping under load. However...

I hesitate to recommend changing such a part. It is labor intensive if the trans is still installed in the car, and also the cost. Without me personally actually being there to road test, and make checks to verify my diagnosis I'm uncomfortable making that call.

All I can really do from here is tell you that a one way clutch that does not hold is more times than not the reason for the complaint you've described.

Grog6 is right. There are mechanical diode conversion kits available for the 4r70w's.

Here is a link to one possible seller:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nk...mId=8059186761

Please keep us posted on this problem. I'd really like to know the final answer.

Cheers,
Race.

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
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Something else to check is to verify that the snap ring retainer that holds the one way clutch in place is in its proper groove, and that it firmly keeps the clutch held in the planetary assembly. That the snap ring is not popping out of place, and that there is no slop.

Yes, it could be slipping under load. However...

I hesitate to recommend changing such a part. It is labor intensive if the trans is still installed in the car, and also the cost. Without me personally actually being there to road test, and make checks to verify my diagnosis I'm uncomfortable making that call.

All I can really do from here is tell you that a one way clutch that does not hold is more times than not the reason for the complaint you've described.

Grog6 is right. There are mechanical diode conversion kits available for the 4r70w's.

Here is a link to one possible seller:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nk...mId=8059186761

Please keep us posted on this problem. I'd really like to know the final answer.

Cheers,
Race.

Thank you guys
..

The trans is already back out of the car and scattered on my bench again. I think my plan is to replace one way clutch. Put back together and hope for the best. If it does it again,ill replace the vb i guess
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 08:13 AM
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Dan and those guys over there do this type of stuff all the time.

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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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well i went a head and replaced the one way clutch in it. i figured for $18 what the hell right. cant hurt.

i will say that uppon installing the new one it felt noticably "stiffer" if you will.
hard to explain but it just felt like it locked up firmer and had more turning resistance.... who knows

so i replaced all the valve body gaskets to make sure that those were not the culprit and buttoned it up. i'll know more in the morning. so cross your fingers...
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 11:45 PM
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My fingers are crossed. I hope it works.

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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-19-2014, 10:43 AM
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while you have it open get the sonnnex replacement snap ring for the mechanical diode as they are prone to failure. Also, if your tranny has the piston-in-sleeve type over drive accumulator piston replace that as well, also a known wearable item. I know this is a long shot but did you have the shift lever in the right slot on the shift piston? I doubt you'd be able to get manual first if it was but I'm no expert.

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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-21-2014, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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well... got it buttoned up and back in the car same exact issue... manual first no problem. but not auto 1st. so i guess my next step is a valve body...






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while you have it open get the sonnnex replacement snap ring for the mechanical diode as they are prone to failure. Also, if your tranny has the piston-in-sleeve type over drive accumulator piston replace that as well, also a known wearable item. I know this is a long shot but did you have the shift lever in the right slot on the shift piston? I doubt you'd be able to get manual first if it was but I'm no expert.
alan: i have in fact already replaced the snap ring with the spiral one. i usually do every time i build one that will see some rpm. thank you for that heads up though.

i have also verified that is not the shifter. have went as far as unhooking the shift linkage and shifting on the side of the trans..
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-21-2014, 05:15 PM
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Man, that really sucks. I was so hoping the one way was at fault.

Do you plan to replace the valve body with a known good one, or try to determine what's wrong with the existing one?

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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-21-2014, 06:11 PM
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while you have the valve body out replace the electronics, the shift solenoids are suspect even though the data logging says they are working, I would say, judging by the fact that the car isn't actually going into first, that they are not. Your manual first might only be the reverse band applying. if it were me I would swap in known good shift solenoids to eliminate that as a possibility. could save you having to drop the pan again.

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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-21-2014, 06:46 PM
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I'm thinking the shift solenoid my be at fault too. That it is keeping the 1-2 shift valve in the 2nd gear position, and it's not until you place it in manual 1st. low that the valve moves into the 1st. gear position. But this is only conjecture on my part.

Really like to know for sure what exactly that solenoid does to move the 1-2 shift valve. How the shift valve reacts depending on whether the solenoid is on, or off, in conjunction with the shift valve springs.

Studying color coded schematic diagrams of the hydraulic circuits in the gear ranges in question would be helpful at this point too. Like the ones found in Motor manuals.

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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-21-2014, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Man, that really sucks. I was so hoping the one way was at fault.

Do you plan to replace the valve body with a known good one, or try to determine what's wrong with the existing one?
im going to replace it with a good working one. I already went throw this one and could not find anything out of the ordinary

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Originally Posted by AlanE View Post
while you have the valve body out replace the electronics, the shift solenoids are suspect even though the data logging says they are working, I would say, judging by the fact that the car isn't actually going into first, that they are not. Your manual first might only be the reverse band applying. if it were me I would swap in known good shift solenoids to eliminate that as a possibility. could save you having to drop the pan again.

I have already replaced the solenoids in it with working ones out of a different trans I had laying around that I know worked.

also fouth gear works fine so SS1 is working with no issue


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Originally Posted by rushtonracing View Post
I'm thinking the shift solenoid my be at fault too. That it is keeping the 1-2 shift valve in the 2nd gear position, and it's not until you place it in manual 1st. low that the valve moves into the 1st. gear position. But this is only conjecture on my part.

Really like to know for sure what exactly that solenoid does to move the 1-2 shift valve. How the shift valve reacts depending on whether the solenoid is on, or off, in conjunction with the shift valve springs.

Studying color coded schematic diagrams of the hydraulic circuits in the gear ranges in question would be helpful at this point too. Like the ones found in Motor manuals.

I would love to get my hands on a the diagrams you speak of.. lol
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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-21-2014, 11:12 PM
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Here is a link to the Motor manual I was referring to.

It is expensive. But I think these books have the best hydraulic circuit diagrams.

You might find the book at your local library. Or ask them to see if it is available from another library in their system.

http://web.archive.org/web/201305312...h-Edition.html

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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-15-2014, 04:24 PM Thread Starter
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sorry for the delay in updates. been busy and too frustrated to deal with it. i ordered up a valve body off of ebay that was suposedly a good running valve body. i slapped it on and same thing only now i dont have manual 1st either. just 2nd,3rd,4th. so im done. waving the white flag. ive never been burned on somthing so bad in my life. im going to by another unit and throw it in and thats that. if i never see another transmission again i will be more than happy...lol

but i thank you guys for all your help.
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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-15-2014, 04:56 PM
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