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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-19-2003, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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Most desireable factory 4r70w

I'm in the market for a 4r70w, and am looking at low mileage takeouts from salvage yards.

What is the best "factory" 4r70w that I can bolt up in my 95 tbird?

I am looking at 2002 mustangs and such, but was wondering if a truck unit was any better?

Also, do all 98+ 4r70w's come with the deep sump pan with the plug, or no?

edit- I know you guys are going to tell me to call dennis reinhardt for the built transmission, but I don't have the funds to do it that way, if i did that would be my first choice.

Thanks,
Justin
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-19-2003, 05:24 PM
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Well if you go with a 99 or newer, I think you'd need a reburn because it has a different main control (it's better too). The crank bolt pattern (6 vs 8) won't matter unless you plan not to re-use your current TC and flexplate.




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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-19-2003, 07:21 PM
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Justin, when did you kill your trans????

I'm gonna go w/ GB on this one: anything from '99 and up has the 'new' accumulators and a much improved (so I hear) main control. They should have a deep sump pan and drain plug as well. While it's out, you can remove those bottom springs and drill the separator plate......

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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-19-2003, 07:47 PM Thread Starter
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I killed it the other night, no 3rd or 4th gear, and no engine braking in manual second gear. One of the clutches is smoked I guess. I'm taking it to a shop for a free estimate, and if they want to rebuild it i'll tell them to forget it. I don't think it will be a cheap fix, but I am taking it to them to check out the solinoids.

Anyway, will I have to use a 95 MLPS on the new transmission, and is any other changes required?

Thanks,
Justin
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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-19-2003, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JustinH
I killed it the other night, no 3rd or 4th gear, and no engine braking in manual second gear. One of the clutches is smoked I guess. I'm taking it to a shop for a free estimate, and if they want to rebuild it i'll tell them to forget it. I don't think it will be a cheap fix, but I am taking it to them to check out the solinoids.

Anyway, will I have to use a 95 MLPS on the new transmission, and is any other changes required?

Thanks,
Justin
For my jacked J-mod.....I've been told my clutches are shot (lie) and that they can't reattach my OD band because I dont have an OD band (big time lie). Rebuild charge: $900 - $1200.

....


A-train or some of the other big dogs will probably chime in soon and throw down the proper info you need.

sucks 'bout your trans.

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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-19-2003, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Well if you go with a 99 or newer, I think you'd need a reburn because it has a different main control

Can't the connector that plugs into the transmission just be repinned, as per the tech articles?

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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-19-2003, 09:48 PM
 
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A '99+ F-150 trans has the updated main control and better materials all-around to compensate for the extra torque of the f150. You will need a different tc, and several other things, but it would be a good choice.
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-19-2003, 11:30 PM
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WB101 makes a good point (see page 12 of thesis, at the bottom)

Quote:
Originally posted by racecougar



Can't the connector that plugs into the transmission just be repinned, as per the tech articles?
Are you talkin about the bottom of page 15 on the thesis? That lists ratings in Ohms, not pin numbers to swap around.




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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 12:12 AM
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as far as takeouts, 1999+ mustangs work nice, 2001+ mustangs have a slightly different main control (dont know specific changes, but i'd assume its a minor improvement). The connector can be repinned (mine was). It should not require a reburn of your chip.

The truck trans (98+) can work but I would not advise the truck main control in a car, I think that was stated in the thesis somewhere. that's why i used a stang VB.
So if you want to stay cheaper the stang unit would probably be easier for you.

no 3rd and 4th could be bad solenoids (SS2), could also be direct clutch let go.
fyi, direct clutch problems and also input shaft failures were common on the older AODs. much less common on the electronic ones, but still possible.
no 2nd manual engine braking sounds bad for the OD band.

the both of these could happen, say if you were cruising at 50mph and the solenoid let go... no pressure, then fried bands etc.

PM me if you need more info.

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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Are you talkin about the bottom of page 15 on the thesis? That lists ratings in Ohms, not pin numbers to swap around.
No, I'm talking about page 16 of Ford Transmissions 101. It discusses repinning the connector so that you can use a later model transmission in our cars.

Silver95bird, what transmission are you using (year)? What modifications did you do to get it to work, you said you repinned the connector but did it require any other mods (TCC, MLPS)? If you don't mind, take a look at my post over at sccoa, I'm having some problems that may be transmission related.

My Headache


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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver95Bird
the both of these could happen, say if you were cruising at 50mph and the solenoid let go... no pressure, then fried bands etc.
Don't solenoids fail by stop working? They will either fail on or off, whichever position they were at when they failed.




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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 01:37 PM
 
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I forgot the truck main control is different. You could just order on from ford. But the truck trans would be worth it. Its tough.
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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhiteBird101
I forgot the truck main control is different. You could just order on from ford. But the truck trans would be worth it. Its tough.
Silver95bird's done it already....
Quote:
Converted 5.4L 4R70W - 1999 GT valvebody
I don't know what he swapped completely...I'm sure he'll shed more light to those that want more, either via PM, or here on the forums....

Either way, there's plenty of newer 4R70W's in boneyards across the country....I'm sure Justin will find what he needs.

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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 05:06 PM
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For a good yet less expensive unit..find a '98 GT trans.I picked up one with 40K miles on it for $400,and it included the MK8/Mustang GT t/c.
The '98 GT trans has the Mechanical diode one-way clutch,and has all of the updated clutch materials,as well as the updated accumulator pistons.The only thing..if you plan on running 3.73 gears..you'll need a 7-tooth(speedo drive gear) output shaft,and will need to tear it down to swap it out.Otherwise..the 8-tooth shaft that is in it will be perfect up to 3.27 gears.No need for a reburn..just repin the connector..I did mine,and it's great with no more gay wires in the pan.Make sure that you read the pinout correctly,as it is easy to cross it up.
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Johnny for the good info.

I just bought a 373 pumpkin the other day, and will be installing that with the new trans.

I don't have the means to tear apart the transmission, I'm looking for something that will bolt right up and work with 373's.

Does the 98 mark converter have the correct speedo drive gear for 373 gears?

Justin

Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Langton
For a good yet less expensive unit..find a '98 GT trans.I picked up one with 40K miles on it for $400,and it included the MK8/Mustang GT t/c.
The '98 GT trans has the Mechanical diode one-way clutch,and has all of the updated clutch materials,as well as the updated accumulator pistons.The only thing..if you plan on running 3.73 gears..you'll need a 7-tooth(speedo drive gear) output shaft,and will need to tear it down to swap it out.Otherwise..the 8-tooth shaft that is in it will be perfect up to 3.27 gears.No need for a reburn..just repin the connector..I did mine,and it's great with no more gay wires in the pan.Make sure that you read the pinout correctly,as it is easy to cross it up.
JL
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 08:40 PM
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Juston,it's the output shaft of the trans at the rear that is the problem with the Speedo gearing.The T/C is the same part # for the Mark 8 and the GT.
If you want to run 3.73's,then your options are limited as to what transmissions have the 7 tooth output shaft.
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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sorry,

I mistyped in my last post. I meant to ask, what model cars or trucks came with the 7 tooth output shaft?

Thanks,
JH
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JustinH
sorry,

I mistyped in my last post. I meant to ask, what model cars or trucks came with the 7 tooth output shaft?

Thanks,
JH
Tbirds,most of the MK8's,and trucks that I know of.
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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks,

Now I'm looking at a 98 Mark8 transmission, because it has the correct output shaft, and the better torque converter.

The only difference between the GT transmission, and the Mark transmission is the output shaft, would that be right?

Justin
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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JustinH
Thanks,

Now I'm looking at a 98 Mark8 transmission, because it has the correct output shaft, and the better torque converter.

The only difference between the GT transmission, and the Mark transmission is the output shaft, would that be right?

Justin
AFAIK.
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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 10:27 PM
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racecougar,
my trans is a '98. Besides the pinouts... you will need the TCC solenoid from your car, a car TC (I recommend it as a great time to get a MK 8 one). VB recommended is 99+ GT if I remember the thesis correctly... however I don't see any reason why your original one (with a J-mod) wouldn't be acceptable. MLPS and the shift lever itself need to be swapped also (the truck one points up if I recall). There is some work involved, but if you're on a tight budget it works well. I'll look at the post and give you a PM if I have any ideas.

GB,
what i was thinking of is if for some reason at cruising speed (4th, with both on) one failed and turned off with the pcm commanding it on... wouldn't that cause pressure loss on a clutch? maybe I'm misunderstanding that part.

JL is right, as I can verify my car had an 8 tooth output shaft... it can be made accurate with gears with one of those speedcal boxes, i know the mustang boys use them with decent results. Dont know about shift point changes with gears in that setup though. The GT swap is a less expensive route, also requires a little less work to swap in.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

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97 Thunderbird 4.6L LX /w Sport Package
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Last edited by Silver95Bird; 03-20-2003 at 10:48 PM.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2003, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver95Bird
GB,
what i was thinking of is if for some reason at cruising speed (4th, with both on) one failed and turned off with the pcm commanding it on... wouldn't that cause pressure loss on a clutch? maybe I'm misunderstanding that part.
I am under the impression that when solenoids fail, they stop moving, as they can fail on or off.

If SS2 failed off, he would lose gears 3 and 4, so he may not have lost his direct clutch. However this is probably of no concern since his OD band is obviously toasted (like S95B said)




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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-21-2003, 05:53 AM Thread Starter
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so, what you are saying is.

Instead of changing the output shaft, you can buy a device like this


to correct the speedometer?

JH
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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-24-2003, 02:47 AM
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JH,
That looks like the piece. I havent seen or toyed with one in person, but I haven't seen anyone here say they were crap either.. but the mustang guys seem to have good luck with them. We don't need them as much here since we can make due with 3.73s ok. In your case it may be easier to buy a box instead of tearing down a trans. You may also be able to get one from a stanger cheaper than new as well... just a thought.

GB,
also another thought: if the OD band let go in 4th gear, it would put a lot of stress on the direct clutch and the intermediate friction clutch (not to be confused with the Int OWC), thus frying the clutch at the same time as the band. Any above case is possible as far as I can tell... solenoid goes, od band goes, clutch goes- and almost any combination/order is possible too.

96 Mustang GT 5spd. w/ 248A Option (GTS). Stock for now until I get the Roush on.

97 Thunderbird 4.6L LX /w Sport Package
24k B&M Cooler, 1" lowered, Steeda UD Pulleys, Dynomax cat-back, J-mod, 3.73's, PI intake, PI cams, 03 GT MAF/Tube, SCT tuned - Gone but not forgotten.
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2003, 08:10 PM
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RESURRECTION!!

So I want to swap the 7-tooth output shaft from my junk '94 trans into the 2000 Mustang trans which has an 8-tooth output shaft? Correct?

Anything else I want to swap?

I will be doing a gear change in the future so I need to figure out what to do.
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2003, 12:57 AM
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well it sure can be done, the only thing is the output shaft is the first part to go in during a rebuild... so you're going to have to take it all out of the case to get to it. otherwise yes, no snags.

96 Mustang GT 5spd. w/ 248A Option (GTS). Stock for now until I get the Roush on.

97 Thunderbird 4.6L LX /w Sport Package
24k B&M Cooler, 1" lowered, Steeda UD Pulleys, Dynomax cat-back, J-mod, 3.73's, PI intake, PI cams, 03 GT MAF/Tube, SCT tuned - Gone but not forgotten.
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2003, 01:02 AM
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Well the Mustang tranny is coming all apart for a rebuild or inspection anyway. Maybe I'll carry my '94 trans. in here tomorrow and rip it apart from the Mn12performance instructions and salvage the output shaft.

JUST the output shaft? It's a direct swap and that's all? I don't know much about our trannys besides how to J-Mod and do a '98+ swap.

TCCoA, there's no better way.
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2003, 01:07 AM
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as long as you have a good factory type manual, it should be pretty straight forward.

96 Mustang GT 5spd. w/ 248A Option (GTS). Stock for now until I get the Roush on.

97 Thunderbird 4.6L LX /w Sport Package
24k B&M Cooler, 1" lowered, Steeda UD Pulleys, Dynomax cat-back, J-mod, 3.73's, PI intake, PI cams, 03 GT MAF/Tube, SCT tuned - Gone but not forgotten.
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2003, 01:14 AM
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I don't!

EDIT: The transmission shop is doing all the important stuff, I just wanted to bring the '94 output shaft to him to put in place of the '00.

Now reading at MN12performance I find this:

"Update Output Shaft
Date - 1995

Reason: To eliminate governor oil feed bore and 4th sealing ring groove, which is not used on AODE. That means the shaft no longer uses the governor pin, sleeve and snap ring.

Parts Changed Output Shaft changed from 4 ring to 3 ring and has no governor passage.

Interchange Will fit all past models

Part Numbers

Note If you need a shaft check with your hard parts supplier, many of them have good used updated output shafts in stock."

Does that matter to me?

Last edited by BlackCat94; 12-02-2003 at 01:38 AM.
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2003, 02:34 AM
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no, it wont cause any problems. if your output shaft has the pin and sleeve over the output shaft, just give those parts to the shop and tell them to put them back in when they reassemble the tranny. Those parts are there instead because the old AODs had a governor there, and the AODE/4R70W doesn't need the governor.

96 Mustang GT 5spd. w/ 248A Option (GTS). Stock for now until I get the Roush on.

97 Thunderbird 4.6L LX /w Sport Package
24k B&M Cooler, 1" lowered, Steeda UD Pulleys, Dynomax cat-back, J-mod, 3.73's, PI intake, PI cams, 03 GT MAF/Tube, SCT tuned - Gone but not forgotten.
MAMN12 Drag Racing Team [email protected] In need of updated times.
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