05 4r75w reverse drum wear question - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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I have a 4r75w torn down and inspecting all the hard parts. Everything looks good except one area. Inside the reverse drum where the two metal sealing rings on the stator seal to the drum. How much wear is acceptable in there? These are the two rings that seal the reverse clutch circuit.



This trans came out of an 05 crown vic police interceptor that was a detective's car. Purchased later by an individual and he got the nose stuck in a ditch one night and was doing the forward reverse shuffle and the reverse gear went out. He kept driving it for 2 months afterwards with no reverse but said all forward gears were fine. It has 134k miles on it. I found the reverse clutches worn but not toasted but the reverse band was totally worn out but it didn't hurt the planetary surface. The intermediate frictions look good but the steels have hot spots. The forward frictions are worn but steels look good. And the direct clutch pack looks like new. Also the reverse servo piston's rubber is hard and cracked in two spots, cap rubber is hard too. OD servo good and the 1-2 2-3 pistons and bores are good. All the bushings look good, none badly worn. Pump is excellent shape. The rear of the case is not ring grooved at all neither is the inside of the stator. The only hard part issue I have found is the ring groves in the rear drum pictured above.

I purchased the sonnax sure cure kit to address all the common issues but as I understand it they haven't come up with a newer design sealing ring for the reverse drum seals, you just have use a new set of regular steel sealing rings.

Last edited by Rodeo Joe; 08-29-2015 at 05:10 AM. Reason: Merged posts
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 08:36 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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The one in my garage is mirror smooth there, with ~150k miles...

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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
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I wonder what could cause this one to ring groove like it is? Actually the machining inside this drum is not very smooth at all. I am a machinist by trade and for that area to be a sealing surface it looks too rough to me.

I could put an inside Mic in there and measure the ring grooves but I dont know what the acceptable size should be.

Last edited by Rodeo Joe; 08-29-2015 at 05:11 AM. Reason: Merged posts
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 04:25 AM
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I'm curiuos if that can be reused or if the OP needs a new drum. I suppose one might be able to smooth the worst of that out with something like emery cloth. Clean it thoroughly and reuse it. I'm not sure how critical it is to have a mirror finish there. Speaking only for myself I'd don't spend a lot of time in reverse. So as long as it wasn't slipping or chewing up the band you might get away with it.

The only time I've been inside a automatic and it was several decades ago. But all of the surfaces where smooth or machined.

I think I would try a trans shop to see if they had a better one sitting around from a trans that was scraped for other issues. Or possibly check eBay or the classifieds here for another drum. I'm assuming this uses a different rear drum than the AOD and 4R70W. If it's parts common between the three I'd think it would be fairly easy to find.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 09:23 AM
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I would replace it. Had one about the same on my 04 build. I think it was out of a taxi.

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 10:44 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 30th View Post
I would replace it...
Agreed; transparts or patc can sell you a new one.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 97CatMan View Post
I'd don't spend a lot of time in reverse. So as long as it wasn't slipping or chewing up the band you might get away with it.
Isn't the reverse band applied during 1st gear or something?

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 11:13 AM
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Isn't the reverse band applied during 1st gear or something?
Is it? I don't know. If that's the case then yes I would think he wants a different one. I haven't really studied the AOD/4R70W/it's related brethren. No idea how Fords engaging reverse in these. I'd also think that if a part in better co condition was readily available and not expensive than you would want to replace it.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 01:04 PM
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Only in manual first the reverse band applies, not Drive 1st though

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MdntRanger50 View Post
I am a machinist by trade and for that area to be a sealing surface it looks too rough to me.
Cool, I may need to pick your brains on buying some tooling for my lathe/mill.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
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As XR7 says, only in manual first does the reverse band apply so you will have engine braking. I have another drum coming. When I get it in I am going to Mic it and then Mic the one that's ring grooved to see how much of a difference it is between the two. The one I have just looks like it was machined incorrectly, may be out of spec on the tight side and the sealing rings had no choice but to wear into it. Idk, we will see. Thanks for the replies.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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Cool, I may need to pick your brains on buying some tooling for my lathe/mill.
Pick away! I use all inserted tooling. I mostly machine on A36, ASTM A516, 1018, and 4140 material for industrial applications. I haven't done so yet but it would be pretty easy to modify clutch pistons for more frictions and steels. I just haven't had a need yet to do so on the transmissions I play with because they are mostly behind NA engines. But this 4r75w I am tinkering with now will be behind a 5.4l eaton M112 engine.

On a side note. I know it is easy enough to leave out the pressure plate, add a friction and steel to the direct pack to make it 7 and to remove to wave plate in the forward to make it 6. But I would rather machine the pistons enough to add 1 to each and keep the pressure plate and wave plate like a stock setup, just with the extra clutches.

Last edited by MdntRanger50; 08-30-2015 at 05:20 PM.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-31-2015, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MdntRanger50 View Post
I have a 4r75w torn down and inspecting all the hard parts. Everything looks good except one area. Inside the reverse drum where the two metal sealing rings on the stator seal to the drum. How much wear is acceptable in there? These are the two rings that seal the reverse clutch circuit.



This trans came out of an 05 crown vic police interceptor that was a detective's car. Purchased later by an individual and he got the nose stuck in a ditch one night and was doing the forward reverse shuffle and the reverse gear went out. He kept driving it for 2 months afterwards with no reverse but said all forward gears were fine. It has 134k miles on it. I found the reverse clutches worn but not toasted but the reverse band was totally worn out but it didn't hurt the planetary surface. The intermediate frictions look good but the steels have hot spots. The forward frictions are worn but steels look good. And the direct clutch pack looks like new. Also the reverse servo piston's rubber is hard and cracked in two spots, cap rubber is hard too. OD servo good and the 1-2 2-3 pistons and bores are good. All the bushings look good, none badly worn. Pump is excellent shape. The rear of the case is not ring grooved at all neither is the inside of the stator. The only hard part issue I have found is the ring groves in the rear drum pictured above.

I purchased the sonnax sure cure kit to address all the common issues but as I understand it they haven't come up with a newer design sealing ring for the reverse drum seals, you just have use a new set of regular steel sealing rings.
Its junk... replace it.

I rebuilt a transmission on a 2005 CVPI last year, the grooves were so deep I had to use a 80 ton shop press to separate the pump stator from the reverse drum.

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-01-2015, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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Results:
New drum sealing area 2.6235"
Worn drum in ring groove 2.6290"
.0055 thousands of wear
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-03-2015, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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I'm tempted to chuck it up in the lathe and see how true I can get it to turn then machine it out to the same as the wear ID, just up to the bushing of course. I'm going to use the new drum but I think cleaning the old one up would still work fine.
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-03-2015, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MdntRanger50 View Post
Results:
New drum sealing area 2.6235"
Worn drum in ring groove 2.6290"
.0055 thousands of wear
I don't know squat about automatics. But wouldn't that be within within tolerances? If it was smooth? That doesn't seem all that far out. ,
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-03-2015, 10:59 PM Thread Starter
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I don't know squat about automatics. But wouldn't that be within within tolerances? If it was smooth? That doesn't seem all that far out. ,
That's the thing, I am a machinist so tolerances are part of my daily job all the time. I have yet to find any min/max tolerances on these transmissions are far as bushings or sealing areas. I have found tolerances for the ring side clearances, pump clearances, clutch packs, and end play but nothing else. Guess it's a test fit feel thing, but I like measuring, it's part of my ocd lol. As far as the sealing rings in this post, that's all they do is seal the reverse clutch pack circuit. They do not support anything, there are two bushings in the drum that take care of that. Now if this was wear in a bushing location it would be a lot more critical. If you have a clearance tolerance of .003-.005 in a bushing and it's worn .0055 more than the max then the bushing needs to be replaced and the part it rides against would need to be measured as well but I don't have any of those specs for these transmissions. So you are left with either that's worn the fuk out or it feels pretty good kind of thing to go by.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MdntRanger50 View Post
I'm tempted to chuck it up in the lathe and see how true I can get it to turn then machine it out to the same as the wear ID, just up to the bushing of course. I'm going to use the new drum but I think cleaning the old one up would still work fine.
just replace it with a good used one off ebay...

If you get it wrong, it will leak pressure, burn up the forward clutch and reverse clutch and will have to pull the transmission back out and rebuild it again.

is a $50 part worth all that?

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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-05-2015, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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I'm going to use the new drum.
Did you miss this part or just not read it? I already purchased a new drum. How do you think I measured it? I'm pretty good but not that magic. 👍
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