Stock Stall speed specs for some common 4R70W applications - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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Stock Stall speed specs for some common 4R70W applications

Application..............minimum stall speed....max stall speed

'98-up Mustang GT...2324...2737
'98-up Crown Vic....2024...2440
'99-up Police or handling package Crown Vic...2319...2750
'99-up 4.6L F150...2145...2505
'03 Marauder...2555...3011

Helpful info if you're looking at a particular trans for a replacement.
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post #2 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 09:59 PM
 
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should be stickied, these questions come up often.
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post #3 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 11:03 PM
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The marauder converters and the 99 up mustang converters have the same stall.The only difference is that the marauder converter is furnace brazed.
The police interceptor converter is the same as well.Ford never made alternate stall's of the 11 inch converters(11&1/4).It is the power of the engine that makes the stall change.
All of the internal components in 12 inch ford torque converters can be easily interchanged excluding the lockup pistons.That covers alot of transmissions.
They Are...C4,C5,C6,E40d,4r100,Aod,Aode,4r70w,5r110. Pretty much any tranny ever built in Sharonville,OH. Most of the converter parts will directly interchange or can be adapted to.
There are 4 different pumps on these 12 inch converters,2 different stators and 2 different turbines.
12 inch converters can be built in stall ranges from 1000 rpm to 2500 efficiently.
If you get more than 2500 stall out of a 12inch converter you either have some serious power or something is wrong with it (broken fins etc...).
It is the power of the engine that makes the stall change.Ford didn't rate converters by stall speed they rated them by k-factor.I don't know the math to k-factor but i know that a 200 k-factor converter has 3:1 torque multiplication and would be about 4000 rpm stall.A 90 k-factor torque converter will stall about 1000 rpm. Most likely found in a 5r110 powerstroke transmission.I adapt then to e40d's everyday for powerstrokes(low stall in a turbodiesel actually lets you use more of the power). A 180 k factor converter will stall about 2800 rpm.12 inch converters never got this high.
The 11inch marauder converter is a 155k.The 12inch 4.2 liter converter is 165k.
The 12 inch converters that i see most often in the highest stall setup is the 4.2 liter f150.

Last edited by dirtyd0g; 08-20-2004 at 06:19 AM.
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post #4 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by dirtyd0g
the marauder converters and the 99 up mustang converters have the same stall
the only difference is that the marauder converter is furnace brazed
the police interceptor converter is the same as well
ford never made alternate stall's of the 11 inch converters(11&1/4)
it is the power of the engine that makes the stall change

all of the internal components in 12 inch ford torque converters can be easily interchanged excluding the lockup pistons

that covers alot of transmissions

c4,c5,c6,e40d,4r100,aod,aode,4r70w,5r110 pretty much any tranny ever built in sharonville most of the converter parts will directly interchange or can be adapted to

there are 4 different pumps on these 12 inch converters

2 different stators and 2 different turbines

12 inch converters can be built in stall ranges from 1000 rpm to 2500 efficiently
if you get more than 2500 stall out of a 12inch converter you either have some serious power or something is wrong with it (broken fins etc...)

it is the power of the engine that makes the stall change

ford didn't rate converters by stall speed they rated them by k-factor

i don't know the math to k-factor but i know that a 200 k-factor converter has 2:1 torque multiplication

a 90 kfactor torque converter will stall about 1000 rpm
most likely found in a 5r110 powerstroke transmission
but i adapt then to e40d's everyday for powerstrokes
(low stall in a turbodiesel actually lets you use more of the power)

a 180 k factor converter will stall about 2800 rpm

12 inch converters never got this high

the 11inch marauder converter is a 145k

the 12inch 4.2 liter converter is 135k

the 12 inch converters that i see most often in the highest stall setup is the 4.2 liter f150
These values are directly from the Ford blueprint specs of the convertors,and they are all based on a 294 ft-lb input torque.
A Marauder convertor is a different stall speed than the Mustang GT,CV police,Mark VII,etc...
And it's not the damed power of the engine that makes the stall speed difference-it's input torque.
Oh,BTW..4.2L truck convertors are rated a minimum of 1987,and a max of 2331.
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post #5 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Langton
Application..............minimum stall speed....max stall speed

'98-up Mustang GT...2324...2737
'98-up Crown Vic....2024...2440
'99-up Police or handling package Crown Vic...2319...2750
'99-up 4.6L F150...2145...2505
'03 Marauder...2555...3011

Helpful info if you're looking at a particular trans for a replacement.
JL
I beleive the Mach1 uses the same stall 'vertor as the Marauder too Dont quote me on that, I might be incorrect.

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post #6 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Great Obucina


I beleive the Mach1 uses the same stall 'vertor as the Marauder too Dont quote me on that, I might be incorrect.

joseph
That is correct.
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post #7 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 11:36 PM
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those compared to the stock stall of 1700-2100!




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post #8 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 11:38 PM
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I can't even understand when dirtydog replies, it's like an incoherent mess of words.

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post #9 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-17-2004, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreenBird
those compared to the stock stall of 1700-2100!
Stock 3.8L Tbird convertors are 1880-2210,4.6L's are 2012-2375.
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post #10 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jturmel
I can't even understand when dirtydog replies, it's like an incoherent mess of words.

-J
maybe i expect people to know the components of a torque converter a little too much sorry didn't mean to confuse you try reading this

that looks like a high stall c6 converter they used the same stall components used in aod and most 12inch 4r70w converters





Quote:
those compared to the stock stall of 1700-2100!
i have the chart off the wall in sharonville that tells the assemblers which parts to use for what
i will try to make a copy of it if i can find a scanner

it shows that the only difference for a 11&1/4 diameter converter is that the better ones are furnace brazed and that all of them became furnace brazed for the 2004 model year
it also has part number so if you accidentally run into one you're not sure what it is out of you can read the number on it and see exactly what is inside
this helps me alot when i am buying cores
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post #11 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dirtyd0g


maybe i expect people to know the components of a torque converter a little too much sorry didn't mean to confuse you try reading this

In regard to the PM you sent, it is nothing personal but when you come on here and type a reply it should be legible. It has nothing to do with not knowing how a torque converter works, I know how they work and I know what the internal parts are. Anyways, nice link there, too bad that is the best link you could come up with on how a torque converter works, crap information.

-J

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Last edited by jturmel; 07-18-2004 at 11:43 AM.
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post #12 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 09:33 AM
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i have reread my post several times and i don't see what the problem is if you understand what the components of the converter are
it all makes sense to me

sorry you didn't like the link it does explain what the different parts of a converter are in a way even a moron can understand it
i never even read all of it ....waste of my time
i pm'd you as to not clutter up a worthwhile post with stupid crap
obviously thats not important to you


Quote:
And it's not the damed power of the engine that makes the stall speed difference-it's input torque
power,torque whats the difference?
horsepower is a dumb figure and really isn't needed
power...torque it's all the same stuff
neatly said
when engine "torque" increases stall increases as well
i will look into the 11 inch converters a little more but according to fords part list and
all of the converters i have cut open there is no stall variation in 11&1/4 diameter converters
they only have 1 impeller(pump),1 stator,and 1 turbine
so if there is a different combination of parts besides brazing the guys at the factory don't know about it and any vehicle is likely to get any different converter

when gregg evans of factory tech originally came to me he had similar questions about these converters because he also was hearing about "marauder" converters having higher stall
i then cut open a 99gt converter and a marauder converter in front of him and we checked all the parts for difference...we found none besides the brazing
so if there really is a difference somebody needs to show me what it is
i have only cut open about 50 marauder converters and probably another 20 of the unbrazed versions ......this year
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post #13 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 10:11 AM
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what about the mark viii? and its stall range???

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post #14 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by mn12xr7
what about the mark viii? and its stall range???
Identical to the '98-up GT convertor.
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post #15 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 11:09 AM
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dirtyd0g, what OKCBird was referring to is your complete lack of capitalization and punctuation. It's completely amazing what some shift key pressing and periods can do the readability of a block of text.

I'm not bustin yer chops, but this forum as a whole has one of the highest levels of intelligible typing I've seen. The vast majority of posts are well-written. We encourage everybody to take just a few extra seconds of their time and write things properly. It not only makes you look better, but the whole board. As you said in your first post here, we have a great forum. We like to keep it that way.

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post #16 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dirtyd0g
power,torque whats the difference?
horsepower is a dumb figure and really isn't needed
power...torque it's all the same stuff
Well for being the "genius" you claim to be, I would have thought you would know the difference between torque and power.

Torque is a measurement of force, i.e. foot-pounds.

Power is force (torque) divided by time, i.e. foot-pounds/sec. Power is what they commonly refer to as horsepower, it is not the same as torque.

There IS a difference.

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post #17 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 12:58 PM
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I edited the post. I hope it is easier to read and understand for all now.

J. I'm not even going to reply to you it isn't worth MY time. All I can say is...
Horsepower is a stupid figure and makes no sense to anyone it invovles rpm more that it involves "torque". I don't know where you factor time into that. Altho i sometimes say horsepower I only use it as a common term everyone loves to hear.Torque is what "power" is all about.
I never claimed to be a "genius". I do however have alot of experience with torque converters. If you have an engine performance problem or a transmission problem that doesn't involve the lockup system. Unless i am familiar with the problem from experience you probably need someone else. If you have a torque converter problem i can not only give you a correct answer but i can show you how to fix it.
Thats my job.

Quote:
Would everyone please try not to be so negative towards each other, and for all those who seem to have a problem with it, just ignore it and move on. Sometimes I just think people are looking for a reaction by replying and criticizing someone
Well Spoken.

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post #18 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 01:27 PM
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Josh, that's nitpicking and you know it. I don't know whether he knows his stuff or not, but you two giving crap over a single word is BS. I don't see anybody arguing with his knowledge, just his presentation. That's dumb.

HORSEPOWER is the measurement derived from torque as you stated. (HP = TQ * RPM / 5252) And since you cannot increase one without the other at any given RPM, I'd say that a POWER increase would indeed change the stall.

Geez. Don't be so freakin anal about nonsensical stuff.

Now, let's put this into perspective with what Johnny said and what Allen (dirtyd0g) said.

Johnny said that several different cars had different stall speeds. No arguing that.

Allen said that the converters are the same (except brazing which in my understanding ONLY enhances durability. It does not change the stall)

Now the cars that have different stalls as listed from Ford all make different amounts of power correct? I think so.

It is FACT that a given torque converter will stall at a different RPM based on the amount of input torque. Higher input torque will yield higher stall. If you order a TC from Precision, they wanna know what kind of power you're making so they can adjust accordingly to match your engine so you get the stall you want.

As for Ford listing different converters, they're NOTORIOUS for using different part numbers for the SAME part. The info that Johnny had could be great ammunition for a parts counter rep or service rep to insist on a more expensive "correct" converter over an equally built "lesser" model.

Why is it so hard for anybody to accept that more than one or two people on the planet know what they're talking about?

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post #19 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 02:33 PM
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no kiddin there SW..

local dealer wanted $60 MORE for a "mark 8 converter" than for a GT converter of the same year (97 in the case i checked).... just cuz it said Lincoln... kinda ridiculous. different part #s, different prices, and the parts guy said, "if you have a lincoln, you should get the lincoln one... " notorious indeed...
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post #20 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dirtyd0g
Horsepower is a stupid figure and makes no sense to anyone it invovles rpm more that it involves "torque". I don't know where you factor time into that.
Without devolving too far into a discussion of physics theory, time is by definition a part of the horsepower unit. One horsepower is defined as 33,000 ft-lbs per minute, it can be thought of as the change in torque with respect to time...

Don't know if you care or not but that is how you factor time into that.

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post #21 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 06:25 PM
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It looks like the marauder converter is the right one for alot of guys who need a converter; and are on a budget.

I wonder how long one would last in my application?
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post #22 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 06:29 PM
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The marauder converter is strong enough for most guys on here i believe.
It's only downfall is that it has plastic stator caps instead of bearings.
The front bearing set out of 5r110 makes these converters darn near bulletproof.
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post #23 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir William
Josh, that's nitpicking and you know it. I don't know whether he knows his stuff or not, but you two giving crap over a single word is BS. I don't see anybody arguing with his knowledge, just his presentation. That's dumb.
I didn't even bring up him using torque and power interchangeably, did you not read the whole thread Bill?

But JL tries to correct him for using the terms together interchangeably and dirtydog comes back and says "power...torque it's all the same stuff", that is not correct and I was explaining the difference. I didn't nitpick him saying that, someone else brought it up originally. The fact is, they are not the same, whether you choose to accept that is your deal, but it is not nitpicking.

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Last edited by jturmel; 07-18-2004 at 06:37 PM.
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post #24 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 06:31 PM
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of course.. this is all stated AFTER most of us put m8 converters in.. grr

just kidding..
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post #25 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dirtyd0g
I don't know where you factor time into that.


Power = Work/Time = F * (2 p r) * (# rev/time)

So power and torque aren't the same.... alright lets move on.

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Last edited by jturmel; 07-18-2004 at 09:16 PM.
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post #26 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 06:40 PM
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You're just the man...you never quit do you? You were right You've proved me wrong
Did i ever say horsepower i think i used power as a generic term.
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post #27 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-18-2004, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dirtyd0g

Did i ever say horsepower i think i used power as a generic term.
You can interchange power and horsepower however you like, a "horsepower" is a unit of power, so while power is a more generic term the two have identical context.

Back to your regularly scheduled flamefest...

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post #28 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 11:50 AM
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Ok I brought the chart back home from work today.
It shows 5 different 4r70w torque converters.They are identified by color of the paint dot on them.This list is for the 2004 model year.All of the converters on this list are brazed as ford began brazing all of the converters.I have to correct the K-factor specs i listed earlier.Here are the specs and part numbers directly from ford in Sharonville,OH.

Part number 3L3P-7902-AC will have a black paint code
This is the 5.4 liter converter it has a 110k stall factor and is the lowest stall ford puts behind 4r70w transmissions.It also has a large lockup piston.

Part number 3L3P-7902-CB will have a lime paint code
This is the 4.6 liter truck converter it has a 145k stall factor and also has the large lockup piston.

Part number 3L3P-7902-BC will have a purple paint code
This is the 3.8 liter car converter it has a 145 k stall factor and has a small lockup piston.

Part number 3R3P-7902-AB will have a orange paint code
This is the 4.2 liter truck converter it has a 165k stall factor(the highest stall built).
It has the small lockup piston as well.

Part number 4W1P-7902-AA will have a green paint code
This is the 4.6 liter car converter it has a 160k stall factor and is the 11&1/4 diameter converter. It also has the small lockup piston (the big one doesn't fit in these converters anyway).

The marauder converters i order everyday from ford i am using part number 2W3Z-7902-AARM it should be the same as 4W1P-7902-AA. they also have green paint code.
Any 11&1/4 converter with a green paint code on it should be internally brazed.
The unbrazed ones had pink paint on them.
These converters cost me 159.25+tax and a core is required

This isn't related to 4r70w tranny's but the part number for the best converter you can put behind a powerstroke is 3C3Z-7902-AARM.
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post #29 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 03:31 PM
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some internal pictures of a crown victoria torque converter are avaliable here:

http://www.p71interceptor.com/tranny/converter

Quote:
Originally posted by jturmel
In regard to the PM you sent, it is nothing personal but when you come on here and type a reply it should be legible. It has nothing to do with not knowing how a torque converter works, I know how they work and I know what the internal parts are. Anyways, nice link there, too bad that is the best link you could come up with on how a torque converter works, crap information.

Visit my website:

http://www.p71interceptor.com
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post #30 of 77 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 03:44 PM
 
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Posts: 2,565
dirtyd0g, the Marauder pieces cost you $159? Heh, the fool at the tranny shop was trying to tell me: 1. that the Marauder's stall wasn't significantly higher than the Thunderbird's, and 2. that they cost over $400! I don't suppose you can snag one of those for me?
SloMo228 is offline  
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