4R70W-JMOD done, now problems - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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Question 4R70W-JMOD done, now problems

1994 Lincoln Mark VIII. 82k miles. JMOD(vb drilled/accums upgraded only)mercon V, hayden trans cooler. Fluid had 20k miles on it, (15k of which there was no trans cooler yet.) Then we installed the trans cooler, we went through the cooler BEFORE the radiator. This wasn't an error, but since the fluid got cooled BEFORE it went to the radiator, it kept the engine temps alot cooler. I had heard many rumors about "over-cooling" trans fluid anyway, so I elected to cool it, then let it flow through the radiator, then back to trans.

Symptom:
have been down the dragstrip a few times since JMOD, always raced in DRIVE, with no problems at all. daily driver-100 miles a day, round trip.

Oct 10, 2004, Sacramento raceway grudge night(5 Mark VIII's making runs). I made 3 passes down the 1/4 mile, with no problems. parked the car since I hit the ET I was hoping for, and to "save the equipment". The last pass, my engine got a little warmer than usual, but still way in the NORMAL range. Just a tad warmer than most of the time.

On the way home(85 miles to track), after cruising on the freeway(70mph) for a good hour, I exited and came to a few traffic lights. Stopped at the first red, waited for green, and drove on. At the second light, with a car infront of me, I slowly began to accelerate. Still in 1st gear, the car began to shudder through the driveline. it definately was NOT an engine stumble. it felt like a manual trans, with a warped flywheel. It only did it for a second, and went away. I knew it wasnt the road surface. it was very obviously a trans issue. The car was fine the rest of the way home.

The next day, I dropped the pan, and replaced the Mercon V with new. The old fluid was still clean, and smelled sweet. I also drained the TC. nothing was out of place, or wrong. Looked extremely clean!

The next day, similar scenario. I drove to work(50mi), and hit a few traffic lights after 45 minutes of freeway. No shudder/symptoms at all. On the way home, 50 miles, after 45 miles, I hit a red light. As it turned green, I slowly accelerated. This time, it ran through first gear fine, shifted into second fine, then a second after getting into 2nd, it shuddered again. I lifted, and re-applied the throttle...shudder. Then it went away.

I am sorry this post is so long, but I wanted to give as many details as I could to help isolate what the problem might be.

If anyone can help me by sharing their experience, I'd be very appreciative.

I the car has relatively low miles. I bought it with 52k on it. I have put near 30k on it. I did the JMOD at 60k. I installed the cooler at 75k. I do mostly freeway driving, so the JMOD doesnt see too much action.

I have heard things like "main control bolts may have backed off, re-torque them". I am generally looking for some ideas where to look. I will have the car on the lift this weekend, dropping the pan again, flushing the cooler lines/cooler, and HOPING to find some loose VB bolts. Thanks!

Last edited by Blackicelsc; 10-14-2004 at 09:59 AM.
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 10:06 AM
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Well, if this is a non-rebuilt trans. (read: stock), and the 94 Mark trans. is anything like the 94 T-Bird trans., then it sounds like the tc is shuddering a bit. It's on it's way out. My opinion- keep an eye on it, take it easy, and build up a 99+ trans., j-mod it, and install that when the 94 trans. pukes. Just a matter of time. Keep in mind that I have only delt w/ this on t-birds and cougars, so I don't know for sure if the Mark is the same. I assume so, but hey, I've been wrong before. I'm sure someone will chime in w/ some actual knowledge, lol.

These are highly engineered precision vehicles, the first step in diagnosing the problem is to strike the suspected offending part sharply and repeatedly with a blunt object, then re-test.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Ford man. I have done alot of research on the TC shudder. Unfortunately, that is mostly, if not only in 3rd and 4th(O/D) gear, at low rpms. The shudder is caused by a frictional material in the TC, and so Mercon V and a trans cooler are highly recommended.

I am pretty sure this is going to be something different due to the fact that it hasnt happened in 3rd or 4th, but rather 1st and second. Not ruling it out completely, I have enevr felt the "shudder" that plagues these transmissions, so I have no idea if this is the same feeling or not.

it felt alot like severe tire hop. You know...a very strong shudder through the driveline. I dont know how "severe" TC shudder really is since my car has never had those symptoms.

I have no problem replacing the TC, but I need to be sure thats the problem first.

Last edited by Blackicelsc; 10-14-2004 at 10:53 AM.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 10:49 AM
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or like driving over a rumble strip on the shoulder of a highway?

These are highly engineered precision vehicles, the first step in diagnosing the problem is to strike the suspected offending part sharply and repeatedly with a blunt object, then re-test.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 10:51 AM
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Maybe a bad TC solenoid? How about the rest of the driveline? U-joints? Irs bushings?

These are highly engineered precision vehicles, the first step in diagnosing the problem is to strike the suspected offending part sharply and repeatedly with a blunt object, then re-test.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 10:57 AM Thread Starter
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Tight as can be. U-joins, driveshaft, susp. mounts... all good.

it felt like(imagine this if you can) sitting still, in low gear, with your back tires on s set of railroad tracks. The pavement is wet. You floor the snot out of it, and do a burn-out over the bumpy railroad tracks.

thats what it felt like. The interior even rattled a bit. pretty strong, rapid "THUD-THUDD-THUD-THUD. reminded me alot of when I used to have an old BMW Bavaria, and the center driveline bearing mount was broken. The center bearing would vibrate the floor boards under hard acceleration.

keep 'em comin guys!!! The more suggestions, the more places to look.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 11:27 AM
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94 MarkVIII converters are junk. Jerry even said so in the tech articles.
97-98 units have the rectangular mounting lugs and are considerably better.
The round lug units have a "cheesey" lockup piston. The piston is prone to deflection causing clutch failure.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 01:10 PM
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I'm going to chime in and say "ditto".

I know you're very familiar with the J-Mod... don't you do a lot of them for guys on the West coast?

My guess (and that’s all it is…) is that even thought it has low mileage on that T/C it may still be the shudder. However, there are more knowledgeable people on here than I, especially when it comes to these transmissions. Hopefully they will give you some hints.

Also, welcome to TCCoA (I'm 97 Mark VIII LSC on Mark VIII.org)

"boing, boing"

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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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Boing-Boing!!! Excellent!

So, is it most everyone's consensus that my TC is toast, and not a main control problem? i will never second guess anyone's opinion. But I also made a post on flatratetech.com and most of them were leaning towards the valve body(something about aeration, and forward clutch seal rings on the pump stator support. Similar to TSB#94-26-9 as mentioned in Jerry's write up:
http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny...on/page4.shtml

If this isnt the case, and its TC I'll prompty find a 97-98 TC, and get it in there.

The odd thing is, this has happened twice. both times, after at least an hour of driving. Temps were normal, etc.

I was trying my best to find a common thread to the two incidents, to help isolate the cause.

I would hate to yank this tranny, install a converter, and find the problem still there.

I will check resistance to the TCC, and go from there with that direction.

I dont mind replacing hard parts, but I dont want to condemn this tranny as it is otherwise performaing better than any other A/T I have operated. I love the JMOD, and was hoping that "if" anything ever went wrong, it would be a TC, or an electrical gizmo, as opposed to the rotating assembly itself.

I also would hate to shell out the coin for a new tranny, if essentially, there is/was nothing wrong with mine.

keep em coming guys. I'll plan to find a 98 TC, and drop the pan, check the TCC and intall the new TC at the same time.(oh, and a drain plug in my pan...DUH!)

I'm not done guys...keep em coming!

Last edited by Blackicelsc; 10-14-2004 at 01:59 PM.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 03:16 PM
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Maybe spinning it hard at the track caused that crappy spring lock to move a bit and is starting to toast the clutches?

These are highly engineered precision vehicles, the first step in diagnosing the problem is to strike the suspected offending part sharply and repeatedly with a blunt object, then re-test.
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 04:24 PM
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No way it is the converter if it does this in low gear.

This sounds more like plug wires than anything else.
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 05:34 PM
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You know I was thinking plug wires too, or maybe an EGR problem. Doesn't sound like the converter to me.

01 F150 5.4L 4x4 and a 98 Mustang GT vert sitting engineless and without transmission or converter


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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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Ok...as far as the plug wires go, I have new MSD 8.5mm super-conductors, autolite 764 coppers with a .054 gap. The plug wires are fine, and all have been working that way since installation 4 months ago.

However, I pride myself on being able to diagnose/troubleshoot various "symptoms" fro my years as a service manager. I used to be the guy they sent out for test drives.

I would almost put a large sum of money on this, that it is a driveline problem. There is definately not a MIS-FIRE.

However, let me run this by you(yet another scenario). I also installed a new fuel filter, and air filter the day of the race. But, since I had to drive 85 miles to the track,(and I didnt baby it either), wouldnt you think if it was a fuel/air delivery problem, it would happen all the time?


Now, the EGR scenario...even though I am darn sure it is driveline, if it was EGR, wouldnt it throw a code/CE light?

Kdanner wrote "no way its the TC if it happened in low gear."
This is true. The first time it happened, I was stopped, and had just begun to accelerate. Definately first gear.
I just double-checked my theory with my GF, who, by the way, drives low 10-second drag cars, and communicates with me extremely well, as to what the car was doing during the pass. I definately trust her opinions as far as driveability issues. She agrees with me...definately not a mis-fire, but a driveline issue. She said "it felt like the rear tires had tire-hop, but the sound/feeling was through the driveline".
(for what its worth)

I cannot stress to you how sure I am that this is driveline...not motor. especially knowing what a piece of junk the early 4R70W's are.

I wish it was a "bucking/serging/mis-diring" issue...those are easier(and cheaper) to fix than a tranny.

I'll pull plugs tomorrow to be sure. Thats one thing I love about copper plugs...they tell the tale!

Thanks guys.

BTW, whoever solves this for me(and ANYONE who knows me, knows I keep my word) I will personally buy you 2 of the next raffle's tickets. It aint much, but if you win, you sure will think it is!!!

Last edited by Blackicelsc; 10-14-2004 at 06:42 PM.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 08:08 PM
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And you are sure that your drivetrain is tight and the CV joints are all ok?

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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 08:09 PM
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I would assume the EGR would throw a CEL, but I have seen it happen without one.

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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 09:51 PM Thread Starter
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yes, I am sure everything from the motor mounts, to the rear center section, half-shafts, u-joints, tranny mounts are all good.

I really checked them good, hoping to find them loose.

I have to almost assume they were good, since when this shudder happened, I was barely on the throttle, and it only happened twice. it would probably happen more often if there was anything loose.

The GF has been driving it this week. 2 miles a day to and from work. Not a hint of the problem so far. One of the common , or "constant" scenarios is, both times, the car had been driven for approx. an hour.

I'll keep working on this, and you guys keep throwing ideas my way, ok?

Thanks for the excellent participation. it almost feels like I asked a trivia question, and everyone is throwing ideas at me. This is great. I just hope the right answer comes along(if it hasnt already)
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 09:55 PM
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Does it do it in all gears?

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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-14-2004, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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Alan...so far, no. it did it once in low, from take off(mild take off, light went green had a car in front...nothing real agressive...just "go") then second time, I was at a stop, light green, a few cars ahead. Turned right, going up hill, it did it again.(before anyone mentioned starvation, I have the new deeper pan).

I cannot attest to it happeneing in second gear, 100%. I honestly think it was in second, the second time, but it may have still been in first. I had just answered my cell phone...it was the GF asking me how my car was running. I walked onto the throttle from a roll after cornering, and it happened again.

Can I ask you a question about the TSB I mentioned earlier?

the terms here :
" and forward clutch seal rings on the pump stator support. Similar to TSB#94-26-9 as mentioned in Jerry's write up:"

isthis an internal tranny thing? or is this in relation to the TC???

BTW Alan, I just read your "praise" on another thread, and the link showing pics of a Converter you built.

I am impressed, and glad to see you "in" on my thread.
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-15-2004, 06:04 AM
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I am not famliair with that tsb but I have one question for you. Does your car have the updated pan and filter or is your pan flat?

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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-15-2004, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Yes...it has the deeper pan/filter combo, mercon V, and a Hayden cooler.

That TSB is listed in JW's list of problems with the stock units, 6th one down on this list:http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny...on/page4.shtml

Thats why I was asking about the "forward clutch seal rings on the pump stator support". Is this a TC component, or internal trans part(s)???
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post #21 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-15-2004, 08:51 AM
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That is an internal part, but it is the first thing behind the converter and not hard to get to.

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