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post #1 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 08:03 AM Thread Starter
 
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4R70W Rebuild

i'm rebuilding my 4R70W this weekend due to supposed intermediate clutch failure.
i also plan on adding a B&M 24,000GVM cooler, inline filter, running merc V, and possibly upgrading my TC to a marrader unit. couple of questions:

1. i heard that the flywheel needs to be ugraded to a marrader unit if i use a marrader TC, so is that a direct bolt up? and will that require any other mods such as recalibrating/flashing my computer(i don't have a chip, yet. . . .)

2. with the rebuild, who makes a decent performance seal and rebuild kit? i'm not looking to handle much more than stock power(max expected would be around 250 rwhp), but rather upgrade so the tranny handles everything better and is all around stronger

~also i don't plan on doing the j-mod(as much as people rave about it, i still hear too many negatives, although i'm willing to bet most problems from that mod arise from user errror or imperfect cores) unless somebody can convince otherwise, i also have already upgraded 1-2 accum.

thanks guys, and quick responces would be much appreachiated
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post #2 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tomaso12
i'm rebuilding my 4R70W this weekend due to supposed intermediate clutch failure.
i also plan on adding a B&M 24,000GVM cooler, inline filter, running merc V, and possibly upgrading my TC to a marrader unit. couple of questions:

1. i heard that the flywheel needs to be ugraded to a marrader unit if i use a marrader TC, so is that a direct bolt up? and will that require any other mods such as recalibrating/flashing my computer(i don't have a chip, yet. . . .)

2. with the rebuild, who makes a decent performance seal and rebuild kit? i'm not looking to handle much more than stock power(max expected would be around 250 rwhp), but rather upgrade so the tranny handles everything better and is all around stronger

~also i don't plan on doing the j-mod(as much as people rave about it, i still hear too many negatives, although i'm willing to bet most problems from that mod arise from user errror or imperfect cores) unless somebody can convince otherwise, i also have already upgraded 1-2 accum.

thanks guys, and quick responces would be much appreachiated
You need a markVIII flexplate.
Ford parts in my opinion are the best unless your going to use an expensive alto kit.
The only negatives to doing a j-mod is not getting it right.
I personally would do the j-mod just be conservative. If you set it up to slam gears it will slam gears. Especially on a stock converter. I would upgrade the 2-3 accumulator too.
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post #3 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 07:27 PM
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Question Direct Clutch Spline stuck in Planetary

My Direct Clutch Spline is stuck in Planetary Shaft Spline - I have jiggled it out an 1/8 inch or so but it's looking like some ginger taps with a wooden or plastic dowel (so as not to damaged it) will be needed to drive it out - Is this kinda common?

& As & I too have Int Roller Clutch failure yeah I chose to bring this old 4r70w Rebuild Thread back to life vice start a new one.

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post #4 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 12:36 AM
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Sounds like you have to pry it apart, replace the bushing in the planet and the direct drum.
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post #5 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 12:14 PM
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Thumbs up

Trying not to risk deforming the Direct Clutch "basket" & pry at the obvious points between Planetary & basket I went with a 1 inch, no larger, no smaller wood dowel thu Sun Shaft & a few whacks drove mine out - 1 inch Teflon Dowel would be the hot setup - In a severe case a 3/4 Brass pipe nipple (1inch OD) might be needed but you might give that bearing trapped inside back of Planetary a few shots it won't appreciate - Obviously you don't want to use an iron driver as you could deform the internal spline Stub Shaft mates to although if I had to use a Brass Driver I'd slip Stub Shaft in Spline while whacking - Upon investigation my guess is they cut the internal spline on the Direct Clutch basket Shaft AFTER they drilled the teeny Lube Feed holes in Direct Clutch basket Shaft for Sun Shaft Bronze Bearing it spins in - One of my feed holes was totally occluded & the other barely open - It wasn't just Clutch debris clogging them - I had to hand drill them out with the smallest shortest broken drill bit I obviously saved for just this job & my trusty small Vice Grips - The Direct Clutch basket Shaft & the Bronze bearing in Sun Shaft were sligthly scored the farthest from Lube Feed holes - My Direct Clutches are the only ones I've found black & worn & "sooty" ... still showing the vast amount of the Factory cross hatching but they were suffering as the Direct Clutch Shaft was'nt turning completely free in the Bronze Sun Shaft Bearing anymore - Cleaned the shaft score with one pass around with a Jewelers file & polished with 320 & 600 - Cleaned a little Shaft material imbedded in the Bronze Bearing grooves - In my case the Bronze Sun Shaft Bearing clearances are now "OK" but I'll replace Bronze anyway along with Alan's reccomendations - One may want to check those lube passages in Direct Clutch Basket internal Spline as a matter of due course - I certainly see how this could take out the Planetary, ETC... if it totally welded together & you could'nt seperate Direct Clutch & Planetary without killing the Planetary.

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Last edited by BUCK; 09-30-2009 at 01:52 PM. Reason: see below
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post #6 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 01:27 PM
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Actually I could care less about the direct clutch, this failure is common to twisted direct drums, it needs to be replaced I'm sure.
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post #7 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 01:57 PM
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Not ignoring your expertise I think Direct Drum (not basket like I called it) is OK - New or old Plates "float" freely in it - It's possible I caught it just in time - Scoring was light & it was still spinning by hand prior to dissasembly but it was on the way out for sure as you describe & would not slip out past the scoring - & it would be a common failure IF by some miracle I'm correct about the all the Direct Drums having occluded lube holes.

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Last edited by BUCK; 09-30-2009 at 02:17 PM.
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post #8 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 06:45 PM
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Look at the drum closely, the holes in the tower of it need to be completely round. If they are not it is twisted which is common and explains the situation.
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post #9 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 07:57 PM
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Aren't there some pics of twisted shafts and drums in one of your teardown articles, Alan?

I could be misremembering, but isn't that the problem of the 3-4 shift at significant throttle?

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post #10 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Aren't there some pics of twisted shafts and drums in one of your teardown articles, Alan?

I could be misremembering, but isn't that the problem of the 3-4 shift at significant throttle?
There may be but I don't know where to find it off hand, a hard sort of thing to show on camera because it is down in the drum.
A 3-4 shift under much load can hurt these transmissions. THey just aren't meant for heavy load during overdrive or especially on the shift.
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post #11 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-01-2009, 06:31 AM
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I am going to chime in here and back up Alan. If you re-use that direct drum you will be in there again very soon cleaning up another mess.

When this happens, and I see it happening a lot more here in the last year and a half for some reason, the ONLY way to fix this problem it to replace the direct drum and the bushing in the planet.

Why?

Because the 'shaft' coming out of the center of the drum that the intermediate stub shaft splines into has been damaged. It most likely isn't perfectly round anymore and it also most likely isn't perfectly true anymore.

In other words it's gonna wobble and tear the hell out of things.

When you can get a good used direct drum for like $25 and a bushing for maybe $3, I think it's a basic no-brainer type situation.

But of course you are free to do what you wish. It's your car and maybe you like testing a hunch, and/or taking stuff apart to replace stuff that got damaged by stuff that wasn't replaced the first time. I don't know. Some people really seem to be into that sort of thing. To me it's a WHOLE lot of work to try and save $30.

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post #12 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-01-2009, 10:15 AM
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Question Reverse Drum 7 or 8 Lugs ?

Thanx Darrin - I understand now that a Direct Drum that LOOKS good could be bad - I will replace & I don;t know for a fact that those are lube holes, you guys may know.

New question: As I look now about half the pix in my 2 Manuals show the Reverse Drum with the "missing" lug & hence only 7 external OD lugs - The other half of pix show Rev Drum with 8 external OD lugs - If 7 lugs is good then my Reverse Drum is OK.

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Last edited by BUCK; 10-02-2009 at 01:58 PM.
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post #13 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-01-2009, 10:34 AM
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Yes, some of the reverse drums had that one lug cut off. That's fine for a regular rebuild.

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post #14 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-01-2009, 05:23 PM
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The reverse drum you have has one major flaw, a 7 element roller clutch that already exploded. It is junk. The mechanical diode will prevent that problem from ever happening and the spiral snap ring will make it a permanent fix.
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post #15 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-01-2009, 07:09 PM
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Question Intermediate One Way Clutches

So just to round out the Thread - By chance are ALL the "7 Lug" Reverse Drums fitted with the race for the poor Roller Clutch & ALL the "8 Lug Reverse Drums" fitted with the good Mech Diode Clutch?

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post #16 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-01-2009, 11:44 PM
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No but all of the hardened tip reverse drums had 8 lugs.
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post #17 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-02-2009, 04:45 PM
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Question Forward Clutch Spring

Next question: My Forward Clutch Spring is "crooked" like a lot of springs are - Leaving top of Forward Clutch Spring Retainer a little unlevel - All under it is absolutely properly installed - All parts under it look brand new - It doesn't interfere with Hub or Bearing on top of it so is this a problem?

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Last edited by BUCK; 10-02-2009 at 05:16 PM.
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post #18 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-03-2009, 01:30 AM
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With the coil wound spring on the forward I think they all appear crooked. As long as the snap ring sits flush I wouldn't worry about that.
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post #19 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-12-2009, 09:04 AM
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Exclamation Forward Clutch Spring Retainer

Well all under it was good but Retainer was NOT properly installed, I caught inside lip of Retainer on Clip groove when compressing Spring which slightly bent inner retainer where it rides on clip & bend cocked the retainer & cocked the Spring - The clue was when Hub rode on Retainer vice laying on Number 3 Bearing - All is fixed now as soon as I upgrade my reading glasses.

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post #20 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 05:06 PM
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Question No 1 Selective Thrust Washer procedure

My fancy 8 Lug Reverse Drum with Mechanical Diode has a much greater height from the top of the Reverse Clutch Drum Thrust Face to the Snap Ring below it than my old POS 7 Lug Drum had - The boss above Snap Ring is wider - I saw this prior to install & anticipated maybe needing a different No 1 Selective Thrust Washer - But the measurement from Pump Case mounting Flange to the 8 Lug Reverse Clutch Drum Thrust Face is only 1.450 which is .035 below the minimum Manual Spec of 1.485 that calls for the Green No 1 Washer so ???

- I have'nt pulled the O/D Servo & O/D Band & 8 Lug Reverse Drum back out yet as things like the Reverse Clutch Lugs are almost centered in the notches of the Reverse Sun Gear when seen thru the port at bottom of Tranny so my thinking is all below is properly seated & it really looks like all the difference is at the 8 Lug Drum Snap Ring boss.

- My Intermediate Clutch Depth Spec is on the money.

- The old No 1 Thrust Washer is a Red Washer that's .105

- Thanx in advance to Gurus for some clarification here.

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Last edited by BUCK; 10-15-2009 at 01:13 PM. Reason: editted bum dope
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post #21 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 05:13 PM
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Can you take both drums, set them side by side and either take pics or measure them height wise?

I have never seen what you are talking about.

But, if the lugs are actually centered in the slots in the shell instead of sitting below center then it's assembled wrong and sitting too high. Thus...

Recheck everything.

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post #22 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 06:16 PM
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Thumbs up Reverse Clutch Lugs

Tranny vertical of course - Double checking thru the port at bottom of Tranny the Lugs are about 1/16 from the top of slot opening & Lug is1/8 from the bottom of slot opening so they are just high of center vice LOW of center of slots in the shell as you say they should be - God forbid they give you pic of Lug relationship in Manual so one could know that prior to installing O/D Servo... Will pull all & see what I screwed up - I'll try & post pic but I'm not sure Newbies can do that here, if not I'll just email them or something - THANX again Darrin~!

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post #23 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 07:42 PM
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I'd be willing to bet the hub is not in the forward drum completely or that the reverse drum is not completely on the forward drum. Either of those will cause that problem. I put the hub into the forward drum then carefully turn it over and stack the reverse drum. Turn the transmission on it's side and gently slide the whole assembly together. From there stand it back on end and install the od band, intermediate clutches and finally the thrust washer,pump gasket and pump.
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post #24 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyd0g View Post
I'd be willing to bet the hub is not in the forward drum completely or that the reverse drum is not completely on the forward drum. Either of those will cause that problem. I put the hub into the forward drum then carefully turn it over and stack the reverse drum. Turn the transmission on it's side and gently slide the whole assembly together. From there stand it back on end and install the od band, intermediate clutches and finally the thrust washer,pump gasket and pump.
Alan
Yup, that.

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post #25 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 09:21 AM
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Question Mech Diode Spiral ugrade

Will do - I take it the new spiral retainer & matching lipped piece in my O/H kit are to replace the external snap Ring over Mech Diode?

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post #26 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 11:03 AM
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Yes, lay the piece down with the lip up. Then work the spiral retainer around the snap ring groove of the drum. Then smash the lip over the snap ring in about 6 places. No more worries of snap ring failure.
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post #27 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 07:42 PM
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No 1 Selective Thrust Washer procedure

Well I made a really stupid mistake - I actually had the hard stuff together right but I had the #8 Bearing in between the Direct Drum & Output Shaft Hub upside down, I was faked out by the groove around the Direct Drum where it meets bearing but had I looked harder I'd seen the Bearing tabs bottomed out in the groove before the race met the Drum - All else was fine though I measured all kinda stuff as I assembled it this time - In the end I picked up .045 at the Pump Case mounting Flange to the 8 Lug Reverse Clutch Drum Thrust Face so now I have 1.495 which is .010 above minimum 1.485 spec - I'll need the smallest #1 thrust Washer - The boss for Snap Ring is on 8 Lug is wider but setting the 2 side by side & running a straight edge across them the 7 & 8 are same height - They both have same depth inside from Lug end to inner thrust face so I see no way making the swap would autmatically trigger a No 1 thrust Washer change - My Reverse Clutch Lugs are just high of centered vertically in Slot.

- BTW I can;t even find the #8 Bearing in the ATSG which I'm only using in my Office as I have a Factory MK8 Manual in garage that's far better - The ATSG is the least expensive one out there & you get what you pay for, or better said you don't get what you don't pay for in the case of the ATSG.

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Last edited by BUCK; 10-15-2009 at 01:16 PM. Reason: editted bum dope
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post #28 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 10:01 PM
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There are no thinner bearings.
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post #29 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-15-2009, 08:33 AM
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Question Selective Thrust Washer Assortment

We have the 5 different colors & various thickness No 1 Selective Thrust Washer assortment as shown on last page of ATSG or in Assembly Section of Factory Manuals available here in S.C. if you need some...

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post #30 of 114 (permalink) Old 10-15-2009, 08:53 AM
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Oh I thought you meant bearing. The thrust spacers are selective for sure.

I can get the entire kit for a few bucks which has them all.
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