4R70W manual valve-body and no EEC - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-19-2004, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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4R70W manual valve-body and no EEC

Has anyone hooked up some sort of stand-alone control box to a 4R70W with a manual valve body? I need something to work with my carb setup and the manual AODs don't seem to be what I'm looking for (too weak).

What manual valve bodies exist for the 4R70W?

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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-19-2004, 07:01 PM
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My understanding from others who've tried it is that the 4r70w's don't last to long with those standalone computers like the baumanator (sp?).


I'd just go with a stick.

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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-20-2004, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Sooo, I just read Jerry's these cover to cover. It is very nice. Anyone in winnipeg wanna do a little collaboration and do some data capture from the EEC to see what voltages SS1, SS2, and EPC get under various conditions? I have a 'gut feeling' I know what SS1 and SS2 do (kickdown), but I'd like to see the range and whether EPC varies with engine RPM or just varied TPS. This seems it would be quite simple to hook up. If EPC does vary with engine RPM, as I suspect it does, that would explain why Baumenator, etc don't last so long. Kinda like hooking up your TV cable to slack on an AOD.

So, calling all 4R70W drivers in the winnipeg area.

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 11:57 AM
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Just tune the computer to handle the EEC how you want, you ideally still want inputs from the engine, like TPS, RPM, etc.... might I ask why all you guys are going to carb over EFI? EFI is far more superior and you guys just seem to be taking steps backwards.

-J

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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 05:38 PM
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There is a guy on here somewhere running a carbed 351C with a 4R70W. I believe he ended up hooking up a TPS on his carb and running it through a stock computer, and got it to work that way.

As far as why carb, well, it has it's advantages too. Care to share how much you have wrapped up in all of your electronics, intake, injectors, mass air, throttle body, fuel pump, tuning, etc etc. Carb, intake, and fuel pump can be done for less than $500 if you know how to shop. EFI is better for street cars, but I'll take a carb on a play toy any day.

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 05:39 PM
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By the way, Performance Automatics makes a manual valve body for that transmission.

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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 06:38 PM
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so why not get a beefery aod and put the 4r70w gearset in it, i was under the impression 4r70ws where aode's with a diffrent 1st and 2nd gear, i didnt know there was a strength issue

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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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beefy AOD? is there such a beast? Also, manually selecting 2nd gear in useful...

Primer is lighter than basecoat/clearcoat... besides, going fast IS looking good.

Anyone want parts. I got BBQ'd
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by jturmel
Just tune the computer to handle the EEC how you want, you ideally still want inputs from the engine, like TPS, RPM, etc.... might I ask why all you guys are going to carb over EFI? EFI is far more superior and you guys just seem to be taking steps backwards.

-J
I'll bet you a ported head that a properly tuned motor with a carb makes better mileage and more power than the idencle engine with EFI. The benefit to EFI is that you don't have to change the tune as much with changes in temperature or barometeric pressure or modifications to the engine. I hate carbs, btw. It was a quick fix because I hate wiring up customer harnesses worse.

I'm putting a speed density EFI system on the motor with twin turbos and a fancy intercooler on top of a carb'd manifold.

How come no one's mentioned that the bellhousings are different btw the AOD and the 4R70W? hmm? I plan on cutting the bellhousing off an AOD and welding it on.


Since we're off topic, offy style mechanical injection is far superior to either SEFI or carbs, so how come YOU haven't converted to that?

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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 08:04 PM
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You will not get better gas mileage with a tuned carb vs tuned EFI period. EFI will make more power under the curve too. Carb will make more peak power, but that is not everything.

Yes, most of the parts from the 4R70W fit in the AOD, mechanical diode, gears, etc. You can also have manual second with an AOD. I do.

You can get a 4R70W with a SBF bellhousing. 5.0L explorers had them, as well as the newer 3.8L mustangs.

Speed density huh? Have fun with that.

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 08:07 PM
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Carb is gay, PERIOD! When compared to EFI and computer controlled systems, Carb is inferior.

Quote:
Originally posted by dode
As far as why carb, well, it has it's advantages too. Care to share how much you have wrapped up in all of your electronics, intake, injectors, mass air, throttle body, fuel pump, tuning, etc etc. Carb, intake, and fuel pump can be done for less than $500 if you know how to shop. EFI is better for street cars, but I'll take a carb on a play toy any day.

John
Of course an "equivalent" carb setup is cheaper, it is an inferior technology. I'll take EFI over carb even on a race car, any day of the week.

Quote:
Originally posted by dode
By the way, Performance Automatics makes a manual valve body for that transmission.
And what is your solution for running at high pressure all the time, which is not good and causes loss in power as well?

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeyICU
so why not get a beefery aod and put the 4r70w gearset in it, i was under the impression 4r70ws where aode's with a diffrent 1st and 2nd gear, i didnt know there was a strength issue
For the most part they are the same transmission minus gearset ratios and slip yoke diameter, but the important thing to note is the better material upgrades that were introduced in the 4R70W and subsequently throughout the years of its life.

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Originally posted by thebigslide
I'll bet you a ported head that a properly tuned motor with a carb makes better mileage and more power than the idencle engine with EFI.
How much do you want to wager?

Quote:
Originally posted by thebigslide
I'm putting a speed density EFI system on the motor with twin turbos and a fancy intercooler on top of a carb'd manifold.
Oh dear God, after posting that I'm not sure I'll respond to anymore posts by you.

Quote:
Originally posted by thebigslide
How come no one's mentioned that the bellhousings are different btw the AOD and the 4R70W? hmm? I plan on cutting the bellhousing off an AOD and welding it on.
Hmmm, probably because they are the same.

A 4R70W designed for a 3.8/4.2/5.0/5.8 has the same bellhousing as an AOD designed for a 3.8/4.2/5.0/5.8.

Now of course you could go buy a 4R70W that was used on a modular engine and cut the bellhousing off and weld on an AOD one but why when they had 4R70W's with the bellhousing you need.



For those who are probably saying "well they run carbs in Pro Stock and Nascar, so it must be better." That couldn't be farther from the truth, and it has more to do with coming up with ways to deal with all the capabilities and possible ways of cheating by having fully integrated ECU systems controlling the fuel, spark, etc. Why I think they are lame excuses they are there, and so are carbs still. As far as carbs vs. EFI, EFI can control individual cylinders and better control the air fuel mixture over the entire range, where carbs have a more limited range. The bottom line is EFI / ECU controlled air/fuel mixture is far superior. Period.

-J

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Last edited by jturmel; 11-21-2004 at 08:15 PM.
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 08:21 PM
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I never said the PA valve body was any good. I just said there was one...

As far as carbs go...saying they are gay is just ignorant. Just because it is old technology doesn't make it gay. So are iron blocks gay because they are old technology? How about iron heads? Your steel rods are gay too because you should be running titanium ones. Same with all the parts in your heads. You are running stainless valves right? Those are old technology.

Simplicity is not necessarily a bad thing...

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dode
I never said the PA valve body was any good. I just said there was one...
So do you always bring up or "recommend" crap? If you're saying you know it isn't good then why even bring it up?


Quote:
Originally posted by dode
As far as carbs go...saying they are gay is just ignorant. Just because it is old technology doesn't make it gay. So are iron blocks gay because they are old technology? How about iron heads? Your steel rods are gay too because you should be running titanium ones. Same with all the parts in your heads. You are running stainless valves right? Those are old technology.
Where in my post did I say iron blocks were better than aluminum blocks? Or any of the rest of the BS you just posted? I didn't, because it would be ignorant. Just like it is ignorant to say carb is better than EFI. Don't try to save yourself, it will be of no use.

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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 08:59 PM
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ok genius...he said...

"What manual valve bodies exist for the 4R70W?"

I said:

"Performance Automatics makes a manual valve body for that transmission"

I didn't recommend anything. In fact I know almost nothing about it. I just answered his question.

You said:

"Carb is gay, PERIOD! When compared to EFI and computer controlled systems, Carb is inferior. Of course an "equivalent" carb setup is cheaper, it is an inferior technology. I'll take EFI over carb even on a race car, any day of the week."

Since you were making the point that EFI was better than carb because it is newer technology, I thought I would point out some of the "old technology" things you run on your car (yeah, I know you have aluminum heads). Why don't you run these newer technologies? MONEY! There is always something better, PERIOD, IF you have enough money. Belt drives, fancy ignitions, shaft rockers, aluminum blocks....all better technology than what we are using now, but we still run the old outdated stuff don't we?

And, where did I make the statement "Carbs are better?" If I thought that, then I would rip all the EFI out of my new car and throw a carb on it. EFI has its place, and so does carb.

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 10:46 PM
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Well it's pretty much all been covered other than the statement about a carb making more peak power. I'd like to hear more to support that statement. My thought process goes something like if the correct spark and air fuel ratio are found which produce peak power, the method of fuel delivery really becomes irrelevant. Now this does not include things like saying a certain intake is more restrictive than another, that type of issue shouldn't be part of the discussion. I would say that the abilty to fine tune a carb in small increments is much more difficult, and really impossible to do at all individual points in the power curve, and certainly far more time consuming. Time is money, this would contribute to at least lessening the cost differential.
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dode
Since you were making the point that EFI was better than carb because it is newer technology, I thought I would point out some of the "old technology" things you run on your car (yeah, I know you have aluminum heads). Why don't you run these newer technologies? MONEY! There is always something better, PERIOD, IF you have enough money. Belt drives, fancy ignitions, shaft rockers, aluminum blocks....all better technology than what we are using now, but we still run the old outdated stuff don't we?
God you're an idiot.

I didn't have an "aluminum block" and go back to an "iron block", I didn't have "titanium valves" and go back to "stainless steel." These guys HAVE EFI and move back to an inferior technology and that was my beef in my first post in this thread, which was "why move backwards in time?"

The question still stands, why do you guys think carb is truly better? No one wants to seem to defend their stance.

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 11:13 PM
 
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I have this same argument everyday at the shop. People who don't understand fuel injection seem to be scared of it, and revert back to EFI sucks.

Bring up an LS1 that runs 10's at the track and the guy drives home with the AC on and gets 20mpg on the highway, and ask them how to do that with a carb'd car, I haven't heard of anyone that can yet.
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 11:15 PM
 
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BTW Josh, it's 11/21/04, did you get your 12???? Or did the rain get you???
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich95XR7
BTW Josh, it's 11/21/04, did you get your 12???? Or did the rain get you???
Got rained out, TV had an auto message on the recorder saying that they should be open next weekend as long as weather permits.

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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-21-2004, 11:51 PM
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Kris-

When I made that point, I was including EFI intakes versus carb intakes in my thoughts, since you can't really have one without the other, just like you can't have EFI without the fuel injection manifold. Now, where an interesting comparison comes in is using a carb and Vic Jr combo in comparison to a EFI converted Vic Jr intake. There was actually a guy locally that swapped from that EFI setup to a vic jr with a holley 750 dp with a Proform main body, and picked up 20 hp on a AFR headed 331, but the curve was not as smooth (due to AFR not being as constant). Absolutely you can tune EFI more than you can a carb, especially at different points in the curve. Was the EFI setup tuned 100%, I do not know. The car picked up .1 sec at the track, so yes it was similar. However, that setup cost about $1000 less than the EFI setup.

Josh-

Maybe he started with a V6 car? Who cares anyway. Are you done with your little tirade yet??

I will say it again...carbs are not necessarily "better". They have advantages and disadvantages. I will give you my three main advantages for carbs:

1. Money

My entire fuel and induction system cost less than your intake manifold, let alone sensors, MAF's, computers, tuners, fuel pumps, regulators, injectors, tb's, etc.

2. Simplicity

Very few parts mean very few things to go wrong.

3. Tuning

Yes, tuning carbs takes some work, but I grew up around carb cars, and work on circle track cars, so I'm used to it. I'm sure I could learn to do my own EFI tuning, but at this point to me I will stick with my flat bladed screwdriver and 5/16" wrench as the only tools I need.

Like I said before, EFI has a ton of advantages too. All of my cars are currently running EFI, and that won't be changing for a while, till the new engine goes in.

To each his own...

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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 12:10 AM
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After much thought, the only good thing I can think about carb is you do not need any form of electricity. This is good on my dirt bike...

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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 08:27 AM
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i guess we are talking in terms of OHV old style ford V8 motors...

i like carbs on older engines because since they have been around since the early 60s, they have had alot more developement

being as efi came pretty much mainstream on the ford V8s in the mid to late 80s, theyve had less development time

thats about the only advantage i could think of carb vs efi on a OHV ford V8

i cant see much other then that, and the fact carbs have simplicity, not having eltronics, so it might be choosen over EFI because someone likes playing with there engine, although its only a fun factor thing, not a go faster then the other fuel delivery system

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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 08:29 AM
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but one thing to note is, if your going carb, and going in the direction of no eltronics, whats wrong with a c4?

ps...i dont know anything about carbs ive always had fuel injection, granted my 1st vehicle was a carbed 300 in an f100, i still no nothing about carbs

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoeyICU
i guess we are talking in terms of OHV old style ford V8 motors...

i like carbs on older engines because since they have been around since the early 60s, they have had alot more developement

being as efi came pretty much mainstream on the ford V8s in the mid to late 80s, theyve had less development time

thats about the only advantage i could think of carb vs efi on a OHV ford V8

i cant see much other then that, and the fact carbs have simplicity, not having eltronics, so it might be choosen over EFI because someone likes playing with there engine, although its only a fun factor thing, not a go faster then the other fuel delivery system

Germans had fuel injected engines in the 30's.

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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 10:27 AM
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Back to the original question.....Why the hell do you think AOD's are too weak....They can be built to handle more than a 4R70W can (at the moment anyway). I know Lentech and others sell AOD trannys that are built to handle 1000+.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Kentwood



Germans had fuel injected engines in the 30's.
im talking in terms of ford V8s specifically

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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 96bird
Back to the original question.....Why the hell do you think AOD's are too weak....They can be built to handle more than a 4R70W can (at the moment anyway). I know Lentech and others sell AOD trannys that are built to handle 1000+.
4r70w is pretty much a diffrent variation of an aod, its an aod-e with a diffrent 1st and 2nd gear ratio, im not sure about internal diffrence, im sure theres a few with, but if the inside desighn is pretty much similar then im thinking they can both be built up to about the same hp holding desighn

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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kentwood
My understanding from others who've tried it is that the 4r70w's don't last to long with those standalone computers like the baumanator (sp?).


I'd just go with a stick.

hmm.. Probably the Operator.. See Sig.

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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dode
There is a guy on here somewhere running a carbed 351C with a 4R70W. I believe he ended up hooking up a TPS on his carb and running it through a stock computer, and got it to work that way.
I know I ran a Carb w/ TPS mounted for TCS, but have now gone to EFI..

Honestly, If you want Manual Control, Go with a Lentech/AOD Buildup., or a C4



Reasons I chose my 4R70W w/Baumanator TCS. (no reference to any ones bickering)

1. Wanted an AOD, 3.73 and a C4, don't make fun highway driving.
2. Couldn't find a "Good" Trans guy for the AOD
3. Liked the Idea of Computer controlled
4. Liked the Idea of Wider Gear Ration
5. 4R70W from what I heard could handle a Good licking compared to a "Unbuilt" AOD
6. Didn't want to Mess with the TV cable, and un-predicable shifts.
7. A HECK of a lot easier to change my shifts, have different shift setups, plus have manutronic shifting
6. Got a Good Deal., and was tired of C4.

1984 Merc Cougar
5.0L, GT40X HEADS, E303 CAM,X303 Valvetrain
1998 4R70W Controlled by Baumannator TCS., 3.73 Track Lock Rear., Bauman Lev 3 Shift Kit.
190LPH, 67mm EGR, 65mm TB, 73mm C&L MAF, 24lb/h Inj, TwEECer RT, A3M EEC-IV
TCCoA-AHole Crew 2004
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in my posts are my own. They are not meant to start a flame war or discourage people. Just my honest opinion and nothing more
Just great, 4 mores years of GOP crap, Im republican, and I endorse this message
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 02:54 PM
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Also, if you have troubles wiring a stereo... Don't attempt the Baumanator. Its not cut and dry, and there is a lot of wiring, and you need to make sure all the connections are water tight, and you must tune your trans correctly, raising or lowering the EPC pressure is NOT the way to modify your shift feeling, I used a Pressure Gauge and set pressures correctly.

If you want to modify your shift firmness, you MUST do it properly with modification to the Valve body, (aka J-Mod), there is NO aftermarket electrical component that will do this, Placing Resisters inline, or modifiying any part of the EPC circuit will result in one thing, "4R70W DEATH"

There was at one time, someone posted a method of Severing the SS1/2 Signals to manually control Shifting, this is all fine and dandy, just make sure the EPC is commanding a good Line Pressure for the shift.. Too Low or High of a Pressure could also result in "4R70W DEATH" if you command a shift., I believe this was a Track Only Setup, and they disconnected the EPC causing a Full Line pressure at all times.

Please note, This above information is what I have read and peaced together, I am by no means an "Expert" or claim to be, If you feel I have made any errors, please post. This way you can inform those who have read this, and more importantly, informed me.

Thank you, I am Wkstill, and I approve this message.

1984 Merc Cougar
5.0L, GT40X HEADS, E303 CAM,X303 Valvetrain
1998 4R70W Controlled by Baumannator TCS., 3.73 Track Lock Rear., Bauman Lev 3 Shift Kit.
190LPH, 67mm EGR, 65mm TB, 73mm C&L MAF, 24lb/h Inj, TwEECer RT, A3M EEC-IV
TCCoA-AHole Crew 2004
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in my posts are my own. They are not meant to start a flame war or discourage people. Just my honest opinion and nothing more
Just great, 4 mores years of GOP crap, Im republican, and I endorse this message
WkStill is offline  
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