'96 4R70W mild mods; late 1-2; wants to be in 1st when in D at low speeds - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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'96 4R70W mild mods; late 1-2; wants to be in 1st when in D at low speeds

I have a weird (or maybe not so weird) problem. For background, I have a 4R70W rebuilt a while ago (maybe 35k, I forget) and the fluid dates back to then. 129000 miles on the car. The fluid looks/smells OK, level might be a mite high (just above the plastic thing) because it WAS low and I added some but I couldn't read the darn dipstick. When the trans was rebuilt it was switched to Mercon V and it has some upgrades (the shop where we took it does some Highway Patrol cars and they gave me the same improvements they do for them.) The rebuild was for forward/reverse crosstalk where with a hot trans it had to be revved to engage R.

Anyway, what it's been doing is that until today, it would very rarely make the 1-2 shift a little late at partial throttle. It might rev to say 3500 when it would normally have shifted at 2000, and the 1-2 would be a little harder than usual. It occurred randomly; I could have it do it twice in a work week but then make a 600 mile trip with no unusual behavior from it at all. In April or so the week it started doing this I checked the fluid and added a bit because after cycling it P-1 and back the level barely registered on the aforementioned stupid white plastic thing.

Now (as of this evening), it'll push the engine to/past redline before going 1-2 in D. If I let off, it will eventually shift, but I have to be gentle with the gas or it'll drop into 1 if I'm in D. When it gets beyond the appropriate shift point I hear a kind of clattering noise (ala Paul Bunyan's 10-speed-bicycle's hub coasting.) When slowing for a turn when it would ordinarily have dropped down no lower than 2nd, it goes to 1st. If the shift occurs it's fairly violent, i can hear the belt screech. No codes on the computer, (I checked with my scanner deal -- just 2 P1443's from some darn emissions thing) and no flashing O/D light.

I can start in 2nd gear and it seems to hold the gear fine, but if I want to be in 3rd I have to let off when I move the lever to D or it will drop to 1st. Kickdown from 3rd seems a little odd but I haven't played with that much for fear of over-revving the engine and having to do the whole driveline at once. 3rd-OD seems just fine and the OD-off mode doesn't seem to make any difference to it. Forward/reverse shifting/engagement is also OK (I verified that rocking the car out of a stuck on wet grass and slight incline!)

The dipstick end feels quite hot, as does the fluid -- it's in that range where 1-2 seconds of touching it is okay but not 10. I did take the car on a highway trip today so it was still all warmed up when I made the short trip when this problem really appeared (and on that longer trip it did do one 1-2 where I was yelling "WTF" but I made the remaining 60% of the trip without any more incidents and not babying it.)

Any ideas on what to do with it? I was figuring fluid for starters but I've gotta limp the thing 150 miles home tomorrow somehow. I knew I should have driven the Dodge today...

1996 Ford Thunderbird 4.6L/auto, 195k miles, semi-retired
2005 Dodge Dakota Club Cab 4x4 4.7L/auto
2015 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7 Hemi/auto
Gone but not forgotten: 1973 Mercury Cougar XR-7 351C-2V/FMX - 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7L/manual

Last edited by ptschett; 06-11-2005 at 10:54 PM.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 11:14 PM Thread Starter
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I might be answering my own question here. Going from The Transmission Document it looks like a bad one-way clutch is possibly the culprit. Another rebuild. Yaay.

1996 Ford Thunderbird 4.6L/auto, 195k miles, semi-retired
2005 Dodge Dakota Club Cab 4x4 4.7L/auto
2015 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7 Hemi/auto
Gone but not forgotten: 1973 Mercury Cougar XR-7 351C-2V/FMX - 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7L/manual
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 11:21 PM
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dude, don't bother rebuilding that tranny, just get a 99 + mustang gt tranny, it will fit with a couple of mods, look up the tranny 101 tech article, it will tell you all you need to change to get the newer tranny in.

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 11:25 PM
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Do you have the updated 1-2 accumulator piston installed?


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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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I'm not sure which accumulator it has. I am wondering, after further searching, if the spring could have let go on that.

1996 Ford Thunderbird 4.6L/auto, 195k miles, semi-retired
2005 Dodge Dakota Club Cab 4x4 4.7L/auto
2015 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7 Hemi/auto
Gone but not forgotten: 1973 Mercury Cougar XR-7 351C-2V/FMX - 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7L/manual
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 11:36 PM
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isn't the accumulater piston problem only on the 94-95's?

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2004 Mercury Grand Marquis GS
Pioneer DEH-P6000UB Infinity 2 way 6x8's, and Eclipse 5x7 3 ways, Fultron Tweets, Infinity 1211A, Alpine SWR-1222D Type-R 12.

1999 VW New Beetle SOLD!

1990 F150 Lariat Xlt 4.9L std cab longbed, E4OD, Work Truck.

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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2005, 12:02 AM
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I don't think so.
My '96 had the crappy aluminum 1-2 piston with the leaky o-rings. In fact, they leaked after only 50k miles and made a terrible 1-2 shift (very much like what you described).
I spent $20 on the updated piston at the dealer and installed it - like a brand-new tranny.
I've also heard that the lower spring breaks quite often for that particular accumulator. Sometimes in more than just two pieces....


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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2005, 01:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougarcragar
I've also heard that the lower spring breaks quite often for that particular accumulator. Sometimes in more than just two pieces....
Yep, when I took my old tranny apart the spring was in a million peices...200k to a tranny will do that.

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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2005, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Well it's gotten worse. If I use the lever to set the gear I want it's rather unhappy -- manual 1-2 has a delay, with a kind of a false neutral; manual 2-manual 3rd does the same thing; and D to OD (by permitting OD with the switch) also. If I just stick it in D and leave the OD-Off button alone it entirely skips 2nd gear -- just revs up to about 4200 in 1st then engages 3rd and drops RPMs way down. That 1-3 shift is surprisingly good. Manual 2nd seems to hold well, it seems like it's just the transition that's the problem. It got me home at least...

Edit: one upside: an annoying clunk I've recently noticed occasionally upon coming to a stop is gone now. But, getting away from that stop is... umm... amusing.

1996 Ford Thunderbird 4.6L/auto, 195k miles, semi-retired
2005 Dodge Dakota Club Cab 4x4 4.7L/auto
2015 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7 Hemi/auto
Gone but not forgotten: 1973 Mercury Cougar XR-7 351C-2V/FMX - 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7L/manual

Last edited by ptschett; 06-12-2005 at 09:03 PM. Reason: correct spelling
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-13-2005, 12:39 AM
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I agree, sounds like the intermediate one way.
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-13-2005, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input guys. Looks like I'll have to call around and see about getting the darn thing fixed (again. grr.)

1996 Ford Thunderbird 4.6L/auto, 195k miles, semi-retired
2005 Dodge Dakota Club Cab 4x4 4.7L/auto
2015 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7 Hemi/auto
Gone but not forgotten: 1973 Mercury Cougar XR-7 351C-2V/FMX - 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7L/manual
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-14-2005, 04:49 AM
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JUst get a 99+ GT Tranny and shut up about it.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-22-2005, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input guys. I have done one more test -- the 3-2 kickdown -- and it overrevs instead of hitting 2, so it seems pretty clear cut to me that the OWC has failed. The trans also warms up very quickly and the fluid is darkening, probably from the 1-3 shift which has to be horrible for the direct clutch. I think I'm going back to the shop it was rebuilt the first time because their price was reasonable, I liked how this trans drove with their mild modifications, and I can't really blame them for Ford's underdesigned part. (I'm pretty sure it has the roller clutch because it does squeak when I turn the output shaft with the trans in neutral -- I read somewhere here that it should click if it has the diode.)

1996 Ford Thunderbird 4.6L/auto, 195k miles, semi-retired
2005 Dodge Dakota Club Cab 4x4 4.7L/auto
2015 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7 Hemi/auto
Gone but not forgotten: 1973 Mercury Cougar XR-7 351C-2V/FMX - 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7L/manual
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-22-2005, 10:07 PM
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So the trannie guru that rebuilt your 4R70W didn't put the mechanical diode OWC in it? Does he not do this on the police cars also? The guy must like comebacks an awful lot.

96 Mustang GT 5spd. w/ 248A Option (GTS). Stock for now until I get the Roush on.

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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-22-2005, 10:34 PM Thread Starter
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At the time mine was rebuilt ('03) the pre-98 CV PI's which would have had the roller one-way were pretty much gone from the SD HP fleet. (Or at least they were only using the '98+ cars to pull me over, hehe.) I wonder if they didn't just order the stock part for my application not realizing the later cars had a significantly better one. I'll have to point it out one way or the other.

Edit: SilverBird: I was in your town once. My sister went to college at Juniata, just down the road in Huntingdon. My mom and I flew in to the airport there to go see my sis graduate last year. It was definitely a different experience for this Dakotas farm boy used to the plains land where large/tall structures can be visible 20 miles away.

1996 Ford Thunderbird 4.6L/auto, 195k miles, semi-retired
2005 Dodge Dakota Club Cab 4x4 4.7L/auto
2015 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7 Hemi/auto
Gone but not forgotten: 1973 Mercury Cougar XR-7 351C-2V/FMX - 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7L/manual
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-22-2005, 10:47 PM
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Actually I'm at home near Wilkes-Barre right now for most of the summer... but yes, State College is probably the best college town I've ever seen. I dont think I'd like it anywhere else. The place has a life of its own. And I don't feel afraid to go anywhere at any time, its a good safe place to be.

96 Mustang GT 5spd. w/ 248A Option (GTS). Stock for now until I get the Roush on.

97 Thunderbird 4.6L LX /w Sport Package
24k B&M Cooler, 1" lowered, Steeda UD Pulleys, Dynomax cat-back, J-mod, 3.73's, PI intake, PI cams, 03 GT MAF/Tube, SCT tuned - Gone but not forgotten.
MAMN12 Drag Racing Team [email protected] In need of updated times.
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