AOD shafts with 4R70W internals - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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AOD shafts with 4R70W internals

I am thinking of building an OAD for my car with the 4R70W gear set and all the updated stamped steel clutch cylinders and I have searched but found no definate answer on this.Can an AOD input and output shafts be used.I was looking at getting Lentechs one piece input and there hardened output shafts.The only thing I have found is that the AOD output shaft is not as strong but can a hardend one be used.
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 06:32 PM
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The output shaft of some later aod's seems pretty stout. I can't say what year or application has the good ones. The output shaft on my '93 was harder than a '98 4r70w shaft. It looked stronger than the 4r70w shaft actually. Probably equal to the elusive '93 Mark VIII shaft.

My transmission had been built before I bought the car so no telling what it originally came from. I've put a good 10k miles on my overhaul with 4r70w gears and no problems yet.

Look for one with splines almost all the way to the speedo gear and make sure it is 7 tooth.

I'm using a TCI input shaft for non-lockup. I really miss the lack of slippage in third and fourth gear. Shifts are much smoother though.
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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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BUt the input and output shafts from the AOD will work I was just looking at the blown up pic of the 4R70W and its got the stub shaft inthere so I was not sure I was told an AOD does not have that I am a GM tech that drives a ford so I am unsure.
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 07:10 PM
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You can use the stock hollow input shaft from an aod. Then use the aod direct shaft and don't forget to use the sonnax ring. That prevents the shaft from blocking lube flow.

You are better off with a late aod stamped forward drum than pressing the shaft. If you press out the shaft make sure there is no pressure on the stamped part, or it will warp.

Important things are to use the sonnax snap ring on the direct shaft and a good output shaft with the improved lube.
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 07:40 PM
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The input shaft from a 4r70w definately can not be used in an aod, been there tried that. You want the 1 piece shaft from summit which is $150. The output shaft you want is the 93 markVIII shaft. Here is a comparison of a standard mn-12 aod output shaft compared to the markVIII shaft. Which would you rather have?

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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 07:57 PM
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While we're on the subject, how would the output shaft from a 94 Mark 8 compare to the two shafts above?

-Rod

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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 08:21 PM
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94 markVIII doesn't have the governor feed hole

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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyd0g
94 markVIII doesn't have the governor feed hole
I was wondering more about the strength of the shaft.

Thanks,
Rod

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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 09:05 PM
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From what I have seen the 8 tooth late shaft is the strongest shaft. There is supposed to be a better 7 tooth shaft than that,but after ordering them I have determined that shaft to be vaporware. The 8 tooth shaft is best.
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 09:33 PM
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My output shaft looks exactly like the '93 MarkVIII shaft and it came with my car.

http://members.cox.net/93tbird/tranny%20pics/shafts.JPG

From top to bottom

1. 7 tooth shaft I found
2.'98 8 tooth 4r70w
3. hardened 7 tooth shaft I bought, then returned
4. original shaft from my '93 tbird

The transmission was rebuilt before I had the car

Oh yeah, when I rebuilt mine I went with the 1 pc shaft from Summit. No real regrets other than slippage of the converter. You need a special converter for the 1 pc shaft.
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-17-2006, 12:41 AM
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In a 93 I guess anything is possible. The 2 shafts I pictured are both from 93's as well just one was from a markVIII the other was from a t-bird.
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-17-2006, 08:01 AM
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The 94 MK shaft is probably exactly the same as the 94 bird shaft. If you want strength and a much more true shaft use the newer 8 spline stuff on a 4R70W. It is the best all the way around. People keep wanting the old 7 spline shafts for speedometer gears, but they are weaker and a whole lot more prone to cause vibration since they are manufactured differently. For the newest shaft they use a much better manufacturing process and is just plain stronger and straighter.

If you need a shaft for an AOD, the best one to use is the one from the 93 MK. But, they cost me over $215 with tax and thats with a good discount so you have to figure that. An AOD is a really pricey thing to build if you do it right.
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-17-2006, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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If I am going with a manual valve body than it does not matter about the govenor than right?I am going to get the lentech strip term. valve body their one piece input shaft and was looking at their hardened output shaft.Also I got the stamped steel forward clutch and reverse clutch cylinder and mechanical diode today from a tranny shop and I found a direct clutch I am going to order is there anything special about putting these in as far as needing bearings or bushings or anything I have access to free parts if they have them.Upgrading the AOD is new to me I am confident about doing the work I just want to get as much info as I can before I do I dont mind spending a little exra money to have the piece of mind the parts are not going to break the first time I lay into it.
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-18-2006, 04:03 AM
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You might have to plug the case passage leading to the governor if you don't use an aod output shaft. I actually don't even know if they use the same size rings or if it would fit right at all. If the '98 up output shaft would fit thats the way to go.

Ask Lentec if it would even work that way with their valvebody. They were very helpful with me on the phone when my street terminator valvebody needed tweaking. They streched the tv limit spring WAY too much. My 1-2 shift occured at 6500 rpm Just make sure your cellphone has free long distance to Canada

Use the Ford direct clutches for a '98 up 5.4. They are stronger than alto's. It's best to use a complete 4r70w core to do the conversion. You need a new bearing kit for peace of mind, which is dirt cheap. ALWAYS do the pump bushing and case bushing, even if they look good. I like the wide babbit bushing for the pump, more forgiving if everything isn't 100% concentric.'97 up forward cylinders set up a little looser. Early ones toss the wave spring and use a flat steel plate instead.
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-18-2006, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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I will give lentech a buzz monday and see what they say I was already planning on putting new bushings and bearings in but I am just tring to figure out if I need bearigns from the AODE-4R70W or if the AOD ones will work.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-18-2006, 09:55 AM
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If you use 4r70w gears you need 4r70w bearings. Actually there is only one bearing different between the two the one that goes on top of the sun gear between the sun shell.
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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-19-2006, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
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so if I am just putting in the stamped steel clutch housings and not the wide ratio gears I am not going to need anything else from the aode/4r70w
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-20-2006, 09:14 AM
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91up transmissions already had stamped steel drums.
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-20-2006, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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so I should not need anything more than from what I have read so far on here and a couple other sites I am still waiting to here back from lentech to see what they say but thanks for the replies so far I know I am new here but you are are one of the more knowlagable sites I have come by so I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your help so far.
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-21-2006, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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I got anouther question how can I tell what year forward cluch I have I got one but from what it says on the tech page about building the tranny it says to use one from a 96 or up but I cant find a part number on it.
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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-21-2006, 01:11 PM
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The only way you are going to tell is by seeing how many plates go in it properly.
There is no part number on it.
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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-21-2006, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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Ok Lenny just got back to me and said their are differant bearings needed to put the stamped steel parts in my AOD is this true and if so which ones.
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-21-2006, 06:57 PM
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The bearing that is on the direct clutch and the bearing in the back of the case changed with the stamped steel parts all the rest stayed the same unless you have the 4r70w gearset. If you have a 91 up unit it already contains the correct bearings I always replace all of the bearing because nothing sucks more than to have to take a transmission back apart because of a whine caused by a bearing that costs a couple bucks.
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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-21-2006, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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So the #7direct clutch inner bearing #8 direct clutch out beraing and #9 case rear would be the ones I need that woule be so nice.I already plan on replacing all the bearings and bushings I just wantd to know if I need any out of the later trannies.Thnkas for the info
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-21-2006, 10:28 PM
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Get a kit intended for a 93 aod and you will be fine. the direct clutch inner bearing is the same through the years the other 2 changed.
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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyd0g
If you use 4r70w gears you need 4r70w bearings. Actually there is only one bearing different between the two the one that goes on top of the sun gear between the sun shell.
Alan
I will remember this....you are confident that this is true? I thought the 2000+ 4R70W had a differnt #9?

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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyd0g
The bearing that is on the direct clutch and the bearing in the back of the case changed with the stamped steel parts all the rest stayed the same unless you have the 4r70w gearset. If you have a 91 up unit it already contains the correct bearings I always replace all of the bearing because nothing sucks more than to have to take a transmission back apart because of a whine caused by a bearing that costs a couple bucks.
Alan
Alan, you can use the cast drum bearings still can't you? It just messes up the endplay right? Or is the circumfrance differnt?

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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 05:48 PM
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The 4r70w bearing was revised but the thickness and everything stays the same it's just a different design. The other bearings you can change a little bit as well you just need to be sure of your endplay height. Personally I only like to use the enclosed bearings but sometimes there isn't room to use both.
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