tranny guru's: 4r70w tcc solenoid or bad converter, used transbrake 1 too many times? - TCCoA Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-01-2006, 06:41 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
PI converter locked up partially. Bad converter? used transbrake 1 too many times?

I've got a 2003 4r70w with a lentech full manual VB. The TCC solenoid is wired directly to a switch. When TCC solenoid fails, does it fail with the converter unlocked? I was showing off my transbrake to a friend, turned the car off, when I went to start it up again, as soon as I put it in gear, it kills the engine.

I disconnected the switch all together so there is no current going through the solenoid, same thing. If I rev it up real high, and bump it in gear and let it spin out in grass, I can slowly stop the tires, but the engine is really being drug down, I have to give it gas to keep it running.

When I do manage to keep the engine running at a stop in gear, if I engage the TCC solenoid, it does lockup the converter as it kills the motor.

This converter is a Circle D reworked PI 3 disc stalled to about 5400 rpm's (the stall never has been right since I got it back, wanted 3500).

Converter bad or solenoid? I need to have the converter redone anyway, probably by PTC, but could it be the solenoid?

Last edited by davidl340; 10-11-2006 at 01:46 PM.
davidl340 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 09:23 AM
Converter Guy
 
dirtyd0g's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: batavia,oh
Age: 42
Posts: 6,617
Send a message via Yahoo to dirtyd0g
You aren't going to find anyone who is going to make the stall what you want if Chris couldn't. Sometimes it takes a couple tries to nail the combination at that rpm with these things. As far as the converter being locked an not allowing the engine to start I doubt it unless something is wrong inside the converter. When these transmissions are in first they physically cannot lockup even if the tcc is stuck on. I would guess something else inside the transmission is binding up if you ask me.
Alan

DirtyDog Performance.Com
Proud sponsor of the SC/XR7 Shootout and Joel Bender Memorial Nats

Please do not send me messages on forums they are too hard to keep up with and I don't check in very often anymore call me at 513 898-1580 or email me alan at dirtydogperformance.com
dirtyd0g is offline  
post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
The motor starts fine. Park and nuetral work normal. It is just when I go in gear. So if I can manage to get it into 1st and it has the same behavior, then I can rule out the lockup solenoid being stuck?

I'm going to give Chris a shout, he said he'd help me out last time and charge me a bit less then a complete rebuild. I was debating on PTC though, I've heard they've got alot of experience in turbo converters.

Last edited by davidl340; 10-02-2006 at 10:45 AM.
davidl340 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
Fluid was normal about 2 hours before I did the 5 second transbrake test. Now it is nice and dark looking, but not burnt smelling (must be some sort of clutch material). All this was fine, never got the tranny over heated (have a gauge). I'm leaning more towards the clutch material in the converter got fudged up somehow based on its behavior (read the first post carefully)

I'm going to put it on jack stands and see what does in nuetral.

Now I have to add to my list of things to do the wonderful task of getting that mess cleaned out of my tranny and cooler.

What really ticks me off is the whole irony of it all, thing does fine for a few months now, and finally fails the first day of a week long hotrod show on the MS Coast called "Cruising the Coast". It's showed up on Spike network last year on HotRod.

Thanks guys, I appreciate any advice I get. This truly is the best source for info on these trannies.
davidl340 is offline  
post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 06:32 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Darrin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Camby, IN 46113
Age: 54
Posts: 2,976
I missed the part where you said it worked fine in neutral.
What about reverse?

Darrin

01 F150 5.4L 4x4 and a 98 Mustang GT vert sitting engineless and without transmission or converter


All my vehicles tuned by BC Automotive (me)

Darrin is offline  
post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 08:12 PM
Chapter Director Coordinator
Moderator
 
jamesD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kissimmee
Age: 37
Posts: 6,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidl340
Thanks guys, I appreciate any advice I get. This truly is the best source for info on these trannies.
donations accepted



I bust ARP bolts by hand...

If Guns kill people, then...
...pencils miss spel werds
...cars make people drive drunk
...spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat
~Gun Owners of America
jamesD is offline  
post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
Same thing in reverse. I honestly believe it is the converter now. I can get the engine to run in reverse, but it is being pulled down hard by the tranny, got to give it a lot of gas.

I just went out to the cruise-in, haven't had a chance to put it on jack stands yet and see what happens in nuetral, but I honestly don't think it matters at this point. Going to send the converter off and figure out what I need to do to get the tranny cleaned out.

I haven't done a search yet, but do I have to pull the whole tranny apart to get the blackened fluid out of it? If so, what do I rinse the tranny parts off with? paint thinner, and then a coat of tranny fluid? I hate this crap, if this indeed the converter has gone bad, I have to admit, I'm a bit pissed, this is supposed to be one of the best converters out there, rebuilt by someone who knows these converters the best, but I guess that's the nature of the beast.
davidl340 is offline  
post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 10:06 PM
Faster than Porkchop
 
cjchevez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Reseda ,Ca
Age: 43
Posts: 2,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidl340
Fluid was normal about 2 hours before I did the 5 second transbrake test. Now it is nice and dark looking, but not burnt smelling (must be some sort of clutch material). All this was fine, never got the tranny over heated (have a gauge). I'm leaning more towards the clutch material in the converter got fudged up somehow based on its behavior (read the first post carefully)

I'm going to put it on jack stands and see what does in nuetral.

Now I have to add to my list of things to do the wonderful task of getting that mess cleaned out of my tranny and cooler.

What really ticks me off is the whole irony of it all, thing does fine for a few months now, and finally fails the first day of a week long hotrod show on the MS Coast called "Cruising the Coast". It's showed up on Spike network last year on HotRod.

Thanks guys, I appreciate any advice I get. This truly is the best source for info on these trannies.


The cd says to trash your radiator a get a new one .

There really is no way of getting everything out .

1997 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 Sport .

60'...... 2.06
1/8th .. 9.194
mph .... 77.13

mods*
PI heads *PI intake*Mark VIII torque converter*Cobra T-loc w\4.10's * Jmod*tranny fluid cooler*P&P stock T/B & plenum*UD pulleys* Dynotech 4in ds*80mm Lightning maf*Xcal2*02 GT intake tube.
cjchevez is offline  
post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjchevez
The cd says to trash your radiator a get a new one .

There really is no way of getting everything out .
ehhh, not what I wanted to hear.
davidl340 is offline  
post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 10:53 PM
Faster than Porkchop
 
cjchevez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Reseda ,Ca
Age: 43
Posts: 2,037
Look in the tech articles for more info .

Not sure what you have in the fluid but if its big I would think about it .

And this is only what I've read so who know's .

Here is the link, read " Is there anything else I need to do when my transmission
fails" .

http://tccoa.com/articles/tranny/tra...on/page5.shtml

1997 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 Sport .

60'...... 2.06
1/8th .. 9.194
mph .... 77.13

mods*
PI heads *PI intake*Mark VIII torque converter*Cobra T-loc w\4.10's * Jmod*tranny fluid cooler*P&P stock T/B & plenum*UD pulleys* Dynotech 4in ds*80mm Lightning maf*Xcal2*02 GT intake tube.
cjchevez is offline  
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 11:10 PM
Chapter Director Coordinator
Moderator
 
jamesD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kissimmee
Age: 37
Posts: 6,253
yep... cooler too if rad is contaminated.. completely flush the cooler lines out.. not a fun job


I bust ARP bolts by hand...

If Guns kill people, then...
...pencils miss spel werds
...cars make people drive drunk
...spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat
~Gun Owners of America
jamesD is offline  
post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-03-2006, 12:02 AM
Converter Guy
 
dirtyd0g's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: batavia,oh
Age: 42
Posts: 6,617
Send a message via Yahoo to dirtyd0g
I have yet to see this issue with the PI 4r70w converters,however on the larger 4r100 diesel units I have seen the tabs of the lockup plates eat into the front cover and wedge the clutch on. I'd be curious to see if that is what has happened on yours. I'm sure [email protected] will be glad to check it out for you.
Honestly with that crap fluid in there I suggest tearing the trans down and freshing it up. Especially if you are running a transbrake, they are hard on stuff. The radiator I would just bypass and install a massive external. Feed it all in steel 3/8 lines and don't worry about it ever again.
Alan

DirtyDog Performance.Com
Proud sponsor of the SC/XR7 Shootout and Joel Bender Memorial Nats

Please do not send me messages on forums they are too hard to keep up with and I don't check in very often anymore call me at 513 898-1580 or email me alan at dirtydogperformance.com
dirtyd0g is offline  
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-03-2006, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
Darrin, I put it up on jack stands this morning, in nuetral, the tires slowly started to spin forward. Nothing that I would think is out of the ordinary.

I've been in this tranny before (put in some pieces I got from dirtyDog), but I don't have the tools (or know how yet) to change seals for a complete rebuild. It only has around 10K miles I think, so I would hope that there is not anything wore out yet. Honestly, cash is tight (found out wife is pregnant), and rebuilding would be another few hundred thrown on top of the converter rebuild and the probably $75 worth of tranny fluid I'll need to flush things out.

The only other issue the tranny has that I might would like to fix while it is out is: when I disengage overdrive, there is a quite a jolt, even with the converter unlocked. I never messed with the overdrive band (factory), probably a few too many clutches stuffed somewhere (I'll have to do a search and see what I come up with)

I'd hate to put a huge cooler in the front, there is soo many heat exchangers on the front of this thing! Radiator, AC condensor, power steering cooler, intercooler, auto tranny cooler (normal size). It would be a challenge to even find a spot for a massive cooler, maybe one of those you put under the car with a flat electric fan.

Anyway, I'll probably pull it out tonight or Wed. Did I mention I hate pulling auto trannies! This one weighs almost more than I do, and when you're crawling around on your back with one leg jacking the tranny up the other bracing the tranny, while your arms are trying to balance the tranny that's sliding off the jack. It gets annoying. And that darn hump on the 4r70w pans messes up the balance point.
davidl340 is offline  
post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-03-2006, 09:44 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Darrin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Camby, IN 46113
Age: 54
Posts: 2,976
Yeah, neutral doesn't matter now. Thats why I said earlier that I didn't see that the car started and ran ok in neutral.
Darrin

01 F150 5.4L 4x4 and a 98 Mustang GT vert sitting engineless and without transmission or converter


All my vehicles tuned by BC Automotive (me)

Darrin is offline  
post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-06-2006, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
I pulled the converter out yesterday (man I hate pulling trannies). Called Chris at Circle D. He said it may be something internal to the tranny leaking fluid into the lockup circuit. Can you 4r70w guru's think of any possible point of failure that would cause fluid to leak into the lockup fluid channels?

I hope it is the converter. Also the fluid did not have any metal in it, nor did I see any particles, it just looked darker, like it was getting over heated, so I may not have to dismantle the tranny.
davidl340 is offline  
post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-06-2006, 07:57 PM
High-Mileage 4.6L Thrasher
Moderator
 
Johnny Langton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,232
The only other thing I see that could be a problem is the full manual VB from lentech. The OEM VB's up til around '03 have a hydraulic bypass to prevent lockup in 1st,but the lentech might not.
JL

1997 Thunderbird-4.6L/[email protected]
'05 F250 Crewcab 2WD-6.8L V10/5R110/4.10
2010 Lincoln MKT-3.5L EcoBoost V6/[email protected] stock
Fuelly
Johnny Langton is offline  
post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 06:58 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,143
I remember years ago working on an old KM-170 that locked up when placed in gear. I had that sucker pulled out and when I went to flush the cooler the rubber hose was completely collapsed. The complete blockage of cooler return was causing the converter to lock.

I'm not sure if this would pertain to any other transmission. Haven't seen a completely blocked cooler since.
icantdrive55 is offline  
post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 07:32 PM
Converter Guy
 
dirtyd0g's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: batavia,oh
Age: 42
Posts: 6,617
Send a message via Yahoo to dirtyd0g
If the cooler is plugged the converter can do that on many transmissions because the cooler flow generally flows in the direction of pushing the converter clutch off. I never thought of that however it is possible and I have seen it on 4r100 and
4l80e transmissions.
Alan

DirtyDog Performance.Com
Proud sponsor of the SC/XR7 Shootout and Joel Bender Memorial Nats

Please do not send me messages on forums they are too hard to keep up with and I don't check in very often anymore call me at 513 898-1580 or email me alan at dirtydogperformance.com
dirtyd0g is offline  
post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
interesting. I'll have to check it out. I hope I get a phone call Wed from Chris that tells me the converter was bad though.
davidl340 is offline  
post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-10-2006, 07:05 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Darrin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Camby, IN 46113
Age: 54
Posts: 2,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidl340
interesting. I'll have to check it out. I hope I get a phone call Wed from Chris that tells me the converter was bad though.
Unfortunately for you I doubt that will be the problem. But it does happen though.
Darrin

01 F150 5.4L 4x4 and a 98 Mustang GT vert sitting engineless and without transmission or converter


All my vehicles tuned by BC Automotive (me)

Darrin is offline  
post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-11-2006, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 33
The mystery is solved. I talked to Chris today. He said that indeed one of the clutch plates somehow lost its clearance and got wedged up and bowed causing a partial lockup. The clutches were burnt due to this also. Said rebuild was not needed for the tranny, not enough of anything should have got in the fluid to cause issues.

He replaced the bad parts and gave me a restall at no cost. Got to say, you can't beat that!

He has seen this before from converters that were unmolested by anyone but PI, sounds like a possible weakness in the PI design. We spoke of converters for a bit, says that there is not a lot of other options. Talked about the space ship converters, but that makes for a heavy converter. TCS kit for lockup was mentioned, but not optimal either. He may be building a better converter than the PI one day, but not today.
davidl340 is offline  
post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-11-2006, 01:57 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Darrin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Camby, IN 46113
Age: 54
Posts: 2,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidl340
He has seen this before from converters that were unmolested by anyone but PI, sounds like a possible weakness in the PI design. We spoke of converters for a bit, says that there is not a lot of other options. Talked about the space ship converters, but that makes for a heavy converter. TCS kit for lockup was mentioned, but not optimal either. He may be building a better converter than the PI one day, but not today.
Yup, all truth there. We need to get some people together to make a product to fill the need.
Darrin

01 F150 5.4L 4x4 and a 98 Mustang GT vert sitting engineless and without transmission or converter


All my vehicles tuned by BC Automotive (me)

Darrin is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TCCoA Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome