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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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can someone clarify all this for me?

so ive been reading up on gears for about two an a half hours now and everyone has different setups and opinions. ive seen a thread that said you cant put 3.73 gears in your car if it has 3.08s stock only 3.55 and ive seen another that said go 3.73s from 3.08s and its one of the best upgrades you can do. so im wondering what ones correct and which is better. also i know now that a ds upgrade and a tune is a must with any gear upgrade ( both were on my to do list anyway) but what about the speedo gear? is it a must for performance or just for an accurate speedo? i have 18s on the car now and the speedos already off some so i dont know what kind of effects would come from this besides a friendly visit from a guy with a badge i hope someone can help clarify this. the answers are probobly all infront of me im just easily confused

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 11:51 AM
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you can put in whatever gears you want, regardless which gears you get i would get a trakloc unit. the only thing the speedo gear does is correct the speedometer. if you go past 3.73 you need a speed cal. also the higher number the gear you get the lower your speed limiter will kick in.

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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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ok thanks that helps. so if i did all that should i just go ahead and hav the entire diff rebuilt while its out or is that stuff usually ok? (stuff meaning clutches, bearings,ect)

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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 12:15 PM
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The thunderbird,cougar and markVIII output shaft will support up to 3.73 gears with a 21 tooth plastic gear running against it. Speedometer reference is more than just for your speedometer the pcm uses it as well. If you go numerically higher you need a speed calibration device.
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 02:18 PM
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Your speedo wont even be accurate with 373s but its not so far off you cant tell but as you pass 80mph I hear its way off.

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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 03:43 PM
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Here's the formula for what speedo gear you need.
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=132130

The 21 tooth speedo gear with the 7 tooth output shaft may or may not be the gear you need with 3.73s. It depends on your tire size. With my tire size, 3.73s and the 21 tooth gear, my speedo is off by about 2%. EG I'm going 60 and my speedo says ~61.5.

As far as how much higher or lower you can go, it has been said that you shouldn't take more than two steps in gearing from stock in any direction unless you plan to get a tune. IE if you have 3.08s now the highest you should go is 3.55s. If you had 2.73s you're limited to 3.27s. This is due to the ability of the PCM to compensate for the rate of how fast the engine revs. If the engine suddenty starts reving faster than it used to during acceleration, it needs to compensate by lowering the RPM when shifts are commanded. Go too far and you could hit the rev limiter. The J-mod can address part of this by decreasing shift time. Like I said though, if you get a tune you are free to pick the gearing of your choice. Another thing to keep in mind however is that as you go higher numerically in gearing, you increase driveshaft RPM for a given speed, and such you should consider a lightweight one-piece aluminum driveshaft as well. Also know that going to 4.10s or higher requires the rear lube mod for the tailshaft of the transmission.

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
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ok thanks every one. this helped alot! now all i have to do is do some thinking on the gears i want till payday and start ordering

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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 05:21 PM
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I have a good used differential (3.55)here of PCD's you might want to talk to him about it. I do suggest having it resealed I can do that for you.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 06:31 PM
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If you put 3.73 gears in a 94 or up MN12 and you use the correct speedo gear it will hit the limiter at 81mph.

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintD View Post
If you put 3.73 gears in a 94 or up MN12 and you use the correct speedo gear it will hit the limiter at 81mph.
Is that because of the signal from the sun shell?

Will resetting the limiter overcome this, or is it deeper than that?

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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 08:43 PM
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The sun shell is not monitored on aode/4r70w and 4r70e applications as it was passed through to measure the input on 4r75 units. I think it is the output speed sensor you are thinking of. It could possibly be the vehicle speed sensor. Use of both was fairly pointless and later models did not use them anymore.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-07-2012, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
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Is that because of the signal from the sun shell?

Will resetting the limiter overcome this, or is it deeper than that?
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-08-2012, 01:03 AM
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You can't overcome this without a tune. The ECM is programmed with either 3.08 or 3.27 ratio to use the RPM of the engine to figure out the speed of the car based on what gear you are in.

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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-08-2012, 01:21 AM
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what i would do is get 3.73's w/traklock a j-mod and tune at the same time to eliminate any weird shifting, low speed limiter, or tagging the rev limiter at WOT.

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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-08-2012, 02:17 AM
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what i would do is get 3.73's w/traklock a j-mod and tune at the same time to eliminate any weird shifting, low speed limiter, or tagging the rev limiter at WOT.
The order I've done things on my car (NONE of these were done at the same time):

1) J-Mod - so freakin' awesome! I highly recommend you do this first thing.
2) Switched my rear end to a Mark VIII aluminum rear (gears went from 3.08 to 3.27, now my speed limiter kicks in at like 98mph)
3) Put a one piece aluminum driveshaft in.
4) Put an 11.25" Mark VIII torque converter in (big change here - highly recommended).

The only problem with what mods I've done is the dang speed limiter. The rev limiter or shifting (other than improving) is NOT effected whatsoever in my experiences. I know a tune would fix this, but my car is so much funner to drive then before I started it all even the way it is now.

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 03:39 PM
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With a 3800 stall,j-mod,3:73 gears, 235/60R15 tires and the 21tooth speedo gear. Everything should run correctly until i get an xcal sometime in the future and tune it to fix the speed limiter correct?

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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 03:42 PM
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Ought to, yes. I'd keep the speeds at a "highway reasonable" rate until you can get your Mark VIII DS installed (which it sounds like you'll do all at once anyway).

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 04:35 PM
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Ought to, yes. I'd keep the speeds at a "highway reasonable" rate until you can get your Mark VIII DS installed (which it sounds like you'll do all at once anyway).
Yea i am going to do them all at once. Now quick question, after i have everything installed, I know my speed limiter will kick in at or around 88mph. So when i am doing 65mph on the highway (according to the speedometer) Will i in fact be doing 65mph even if my limiter comes on at 88mph?

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 04:37 PM
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Yea i am going to do them all at once. Now quick question, after i have everything installed, I know my speed limiter will kick in at or around 88mph. So when i am doing 65mph on the highway (according to the speedometer) Will i in fact be doing 65mph even if my limiter comes on at 88mph?
No matter what your speedo reads, the limiter will come on at the same speed - I guess in your case 88 mph.

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 04:41 PM
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Yea i am going to do them all at once. Now quick question, after i have everything installed, I know my speed limiter will kick in at or around 88mph. So when i am doing 65mph on the highway (according to the speedometer) Will i in fact be doing 65mph even if my limiter comes on at 88mph?
if you change the speedo gear it will read correct.

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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 04:52 PM
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On 94 and up it uses the output shaft speed for the limiter. I raised all my shaft speed limits to 16,000rpm and changed the N/V from 40 to 46.5. Car shifts exactly like its programmed to.

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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 05:07 PM
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if you change the speedo gear it will read correct.
Ok, Thats what i was wondering. I am a little confused on that part. So when my speedometer reads 65mph i will be going 65mph, But when i get up to 88mph the pcm would think im doing 106mph? Im confused lol

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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 05:18 PM
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No, the PCM computes how fast the driveshaft is spinning, and uses that as a basis for at what speed to cut off fuel for the speed limiter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry W.
For a given tire size and axle ratio, there is a value that's called N/V (said N over V). That is the engine speed (or better yet, driveshaft speed) divided by vehicle. This basically says the driveshaft RPM required for every 1 MPH.

On a 3.08 axle T-bird with stock tires this value is 40, with a 3.27 axle, it's 42.5. This means that at 100 mph a 3.27 axle bird has a driveshaft speed of 4250 rpm (100 times 42.5).

The calibration in the car is set-up for a given N/V. In 1994/5 this was 40 since the base axle for the car was a 3.08. If you change axles and change the speedo gear so the speedo reads correct, the EEC always knows the correct N/V. It knows output shaft speed via the OSS sensor (this is driveshaft speed) and it knows vehicle speed via the vehicle speed sensor. Divide the two and you have the actual N/V.

Now, the EEC takes the N/V the car was set up for and divides it by the actual N/V. It then comes up with a correction factor. For example, if you had a 1994/5 car the N/V it was set up for was 40. But if you ordered a 3.27 axle, the actual N/V is 42.5. It then divides the two 40/42.5 and gets a value of .94. Then, the EEC takes this number and multiplies the entire shift schedule by this number so the car shifts at a lower vehicle speed with a higher numerical axle. But, if you think about this, even though it's shifting at a lower vehicle speed, it's shifting at the same driveshaft speed. (At the same vehicle speeds a 3.08 axle car's driveshaft is turning 6% slower than the same car with a 3.27 axle).

So if you change the axle and speedo gear, the trans should shift at the same driveshaft speed, but a lower vehicle speed. No problem.

But, there are limits that are set to how much the EEC is allowed to correct for. These limits vary by model year and calibration. They are usually set to allow to go up 1 or 2 axle ratios.

The reason your engine may hit the rev limiter when changing axle ratios is a totally different story and has nothing to do with this.

Jerry
Once you put in the new speedo gear, the PCM will have a new correction value from the new N/V, and it will multiply the speed limit (and the entire shift schedule, as Jerry says here) by that value.

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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 05:24 PM
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...Interesting, I did not know of N/V thanks Brandon

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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 05:43 PM
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If you don't change the N/V value and go to 3.73 it will shift OK but not great. They will be a little inconsistent and clunky (for lack of a better word). Once I changed the N/V the shifts were exactly the way it was programmed to shift.

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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 10:38 PM
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If you don't change the N/V value and go to 3.73 it will shift OK but not great. They will be a little inconsistent and clunky (for lack of a better word). Once I changed the N/V the shifts were exactly the way it was programmed to shift.
To confirm. If a guy went from 3.27 to 3.73 as long as you put the right speedo gear in the shifts will be just fine? Other than being a bit sooner. Is that right?

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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 10:42 PM
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Ok, let's clear all this up for everybody once and for all!

When you change gears, the ECM speed limiter WILL KICK IN SOONER as far as how fast the car is moving! It does not matter if you even left the speedo gear COMPLETELY DISCONNECTED.

That speedo gear is ONLY FOR THE SPEEDOMETER (as far as speed limit goes).

The ECM is programmed to only spin the DRIVESHAFT at a maximum speed, does matter what freakin' gear you put in the rear. The ECM goes from engine RPM & gear tranny is in to determine when to kick the speed limiter in.

So the tranny will shift EXACTLY THE SAME no matter what speedo gear you put in and the speed limiter will kick in at EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED no matter what the speedo says.

The ECM is limiting the DRIVESHAFT SPEED, not the speed of the car (just like the rev limiter is to limit the TORQUE CONVERTER SPEED).

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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 10:57 PM
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Ok, let's clear all this up for everybody once and for all!

When you change gears, the ECM speed limiter WILL KICK IN SOONER as far as how fast the car is moving! It does not matter if you even left the speedo gear COMPLETELY DISCONNECTED.

That speedo gear is ONLY FOR THE SPEEDOMETER (as far as speed limit goes).

The ECM is programmed to only spin the DRIVESHAFT at a maximum speed, does matter what freakin' gear you put in the rear. The ECM goes from engine RPM & gear tranny is in to determine when to kick the speed limiter in.

So the tranny will shift EXACTLY THE SAME no matter what speedo gear you put in and the speed limiter will kick in at EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED no matter what the speedo says.

The ECM is limiting the DRIVESHAFT SPEED, not the speed of the car (just like the rev limiter is to limit the TORQUE CONVERTER SPEED).

Im still confused.









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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2012, 11:06 PM
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Im still confused.

lmao jk. Simple and blunt i like that, Thanks Rick




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