Differential Rebuild, 4.10 Swap, Do I Have Everything? - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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Differential Rebuild, 4.10 Swap, I Think I Have Everything - Work in Progress

It seems like information is sparse in this forum, or maybe it's because there's plenty of other information elsewhere on the internet?

The IRS is a different animal though, isn't it? Everyone seems scared of installing gears in it around here, I may do it myself.

I bought a used Trac-Lok differential out of a junkyard.

Ordered the following today:
  • FRPP 4.10 Gears - M-4209-88410 ($144 from Steeda)
  • 21 tooth Speedo Gear - D0OZ-17271-B ($10 from Steeda)
  • FRPP Trac-Lok Rebuild Kit With Carbon Fiber Clutch Packs 8.8" - M-4700-C (comes with heavy S-Spring) ($108 from CJPonyParts)
  • FRPP 8.8" Ring & Pinion Install Kit - M4210-B2 ($73 on eBay)

Are there other seals and bearings I should do while I'm there? Any other good advice? Obviously I'll need some oil and friction modifier. There should really be a sticky on this!

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1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears

Last edited by BlackCat94; 03-11-2016 at 05:37 PM.
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 03:57 PM
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When it comes to completely rebuilding the rear end on our cars..
I think it's worth paying $$ someone else with the specialty tools to do it..It's not difficult to screw it up trying to do it yourself..

That being said, here is a couple of videos that will be useful along the way:


Ken is actually a member here, and may be of some help if you can get ahold of him..

If you decide to tackle this, or even if you take it to someone else..
Make sure all of the old bearing races have been removed..

There have been issues, where the new bearings do not seat correctly in the old races..

It's better to use the new bearings/races together to avoid any headaches..


The only thing I didn't see on your list was:

Ford Racing Axle Bearing & Seal Kit (M-4413-A)

When you buy a used IRS Trac-Lok there are a few things that could potentially cause you an issue..


Here's a few:

The flange runout should be measured for trueness..Too much runout, and your gears won't mesh properly..

Also if the bearings on the Trac-Lok have spun on the ends of the case..That could cause an issue as well..

A good indicator of this is when you go to remove the old bearings from the Trac-Lok..
You can usually see if they have spun around on the ends of the case by scarring, or that the new bearings are not a tight fit...

There are also thrust washers between the case of the Trac-Lok, and the spiders..
If the thrust washers have worn right through..The Trac-Lok carrier/case is pretty much junk, and you'll have to find a new one..

I think it's good practice to replace these thrust washers when rebuilding the Trac-Lok..

You can pick these up at RockAuto..Part Number #USA33297 (quantity 2)


There's more to this, but I'll let the other guys fill you in on everything else I missed..lol







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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-05-2016, 11:22 AM
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I think if you're going to open it up for a gear change, it would be a real shame if you didn't take the opportunity to do bearings and seals. If I had skipped the bearings and seals when I rebuilt my Mustang's solid axle last year, I would probably be regretting it right now.

If you're still having trouble deciding, grab the pinon flange and wiggle the pinion shaft in a front-back/in-out motion. If there is any play, the bearings are worn.

EDIT: Oh, I missed that you already had the install kit in your parts list. Good choice!

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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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In addition to the thrust washers mentioned above (thanks Rayo) USA33297 (qty. 2) [$11], I realized I need to source the axle bearings F65Z-4B413-A1A [$29] and axle seals E9SZ-4B416-A [$25] separately.

I got the case sandblasted, that was $70, about $30-40 more than I was hoping it to be. I'm torn between spray paint and powdercoating it now. I can prime, paint, clear for the $5 I spent on clearcoat. Or I can spend $60 to have it powdercoated, I don't know if that's justifiable. I think I'm already over budget.

The plastic cap on the pinion flange is all distorted and plainly looks messed up. Like it was rubbing on something and/or hot. It has a part number on it, E6TW-04859-AA. I can't find that part anywhere. Please don't tell me I have to spend $50 on an entire pinion flange to get that.



You can see the part I'm talking about in this picture: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3YsAAO...Xt/s-l1600.jpg

Lastly, I'm concerned about driveshaft issues. You're supposed to use a punch to mark your driveshaft to index with the pinion flange. Well that's not possible in this scenario of course. Then what?

I also need an aftermarket driveshaft. I just can't believe how blasted much they cost. I'm looking at Dynotech and Denny's.

I'm not completely confident in being able to put it all together properly without pulling my hair out. I have a couple friends who've done it on heavy equipment or solid axle other vehicles. I'm also not sure who I trust as a mechanic around here or how much more I feel comfortable spending.

I'm up to $616 into the differential
$11 in friction modifier, one bottle for soaking clutch packs, one for use after
$12 for a Lisle seal puller, the seals were pretty darn tough to get out by myself
$30 for a bearing/seal installer kit
$10 for a gasket scraper

I still need to decide on a gear oil and buy or borrow a dial indicator and micrometer.

This is easily a $700 project already, before needing $500-700 for a driveshaft. Oh yeah and the tailshaft lube mod. Another $150 and a few hours of misery to make that happen. I think I'll skip the powdercoat.

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1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears

Last edited by BlackCat94; 03-11-2016 at 05:35 PM.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-11-2016, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat94 View Post
The plastic cap on the pinion flange is all distorted and plainly looks messed up. Like it was rubbing on something and/or hot. It has a part number on it, E6TW-04859-AA. I can't find that part anywhere. Please don't tell me I have to spend $50 on an entire pinion flange to get that.
I have one of these coming from my local dealer, the above number I was told by White Bear Lake Ford is an engineering number. The proper part number is E6TZ-4859-A and it set me back $2.40.

I primed the case, then when I looked at the time to apply the second coat I saw that it says not to apply to surfaces that get above 200°F.

I read everything on the can twice before, didn't notice that. Now I have a whole new problem. Seems powder coat isn't as durable as I thought it was from my research. Some sources recommend POR-15, which sounds good, after I get the spray primer off.

I also ordered the outboard axle nuts, the FRPP instructions say to replace them on the other IRS vehicles when you do this so I assume the same for our cars. They're discontinued, but the dealer has a package of four on the way to me for a mere $26.28. They seem to be available individually online for exactly half the price they screwed me for. According to this they're a worthwhile upgrade over our stock nuts anyway.

TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-11-2016, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat94
I realized I need to source the axle bearings F65Z-4B413-A1A [$29] and axle seals E9SZ-4B416-A [$25] separately.
The Ford Racing Axle Bearing & Seal Kit (M-4413-A) comes with all of those together, instead of buying them separately..


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat94
I got the case sandblasted, that was $70, about $30-40 more than I was hoping it to be. I'm torn between spray paint and powdercoating it now. I can prime, paint, clear for the $5 I spent on clearcoat. Or I can spend $60 to have it powdercoated, I don't know if that's justifiable. I think I'm already over budget.
Unless you plan on making your car a "show car" at some point in its life, you might as well just paint it instead of powdercoating it..

Spend the time with a shop-vac or compressed air, and a can of WD-40 now..
To remove all of the sand particles before the rebuild, or you will regret it later when the sand mixes with your gear lube..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat94
The plastic cap on the pinion flange is all distorted and plainly looks messed up. Like it was rubbing on something and/or hot. It has a part number on it, E6TW-04859-AA. I can't find that part anywhere. Please don't tell me I have to spend $50 on an entire pinion flange to get that.
Unfortunately you can't replace the plastic portion of the pinion flange separately..The whole thing must be replaced as a unit..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat94
Lastly, I'm concerned about driveshaft issues. You're supposed to use a punch to mark your driveshaft to index with the pinion flange. Well that's not possible in this scenario of course. Then what?
I could be wrong, but AFAIK this is more a concern with the stock driveshaft..

If you are using an aftermarket driveshaft it has to be balanced anyways..
So it's going to be hit or miss if you have to remove the driveshaft and turn it clockwise to the next set of bolt holes..
That is if you pick up a vibration from not being clocked correctly..

I went with a custom steel driveshaft, and had it powdercoated..It is quite a beautiful thing to behold..lol

If you plan on spinning the rpm's above stock..You really should spend the money on a good aftermarket driveshaft..

IMO..For the SOP feel..I think it's worth the costs associated with a rear end upgrade..






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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-11-2016, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayo View Post
The Ford Racing Axle Bearing & Seal Kit (M-4413-A) comes with all of those together, instead of buying them separately..

Rayo..
Excellent info that could've saved me $20 had I known that two days ago. I can't believe I didn't see that in the FRPP catalog.

I also can't believe, with how many people have done what I'm doing now, there's so very little info on this site that I've found. I feel like I was going into this relatively blind and this thread is the most informative one I've found on the subject so far. A sticky or a tech article would go a long ways. (Yes I realize I'm volunteering, I'm happy to save someone the hassle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayo View Post
Unfortunately you can't replace the plastic portion of the pinion flange separately..The whole thing must be replaced as a unit..
See my post right above your's. E6TZ-4859-A Deflector

Thanks for the direction!

edit: Just ordered three quarts of Royal Purple 75W-140 from a seller on Amazon for $46.69 delivered, that's $15.56/qt which is cheaper than Mobil 1 ($16/qt), Royal Purple ($19/qt), or Motorcraft ($21/qt) is here. No sales tax was paid in this transaction either.

I cracked the $700 mark on this project with my can of primer and clearcoat and other things today. I'm sure wondering what my ETs will look like, though maybe it doesn't matter because I'm sure the car will be so much more fun to drive.

TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears

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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-11-2016, 05:57 PM
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Glad I could help..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat94
I also can't believe, with how many people have done what I'm doing now, there's so very little info on this site that I've found.
I think that's because most people leave this job to the pro's..

If one did intend on doing a write-up on how to rebuild the rear end with pics and part numbers, and everything else associated with it..

That's a pretty big undertaking to do thoroughly, and actually document all the steps with pics..

Then you have to consider the special tools needed, and everything else..

As well as a first timer coming to a Sticky on this..Having never done anything on this level, and asking to be spoon fed..

You see where I'm going with this??..lol


Anyways, I don't think it's a bad idea to have a shopping list of parts needed for people to view..







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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-11-2016, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayo View Post
If one did intend on doing a write-up on how to rebuild the rear end with pics and part numbers, and everything else associated with it..

That's a pretty big undertaking to do thoroughly, and actually document all the steps with pics..

Then you have to consider the special tools needed, and everything else..
I definitely see your point, but...

I also see you mentioned the M-4413-A IRS bearing & seal kit in your first post, OOPS! I thought what I had ordered included those bearings until I got it torn down and started counting parts. Realized I'd need seals and bearings too later. I ordered the seals on the 8th, the bearings on the 10th. Either way, there's no reason there's not a sticky or a tech article that mentions that. After the site has been around for nearly 14 years, as have I. (not blaming anyone)

There are lots of good videos and step-by-step articles on setting up and installing the ring and pinion, the clutch packs, etc., from FRPP and other sources. The parts come with instructions and links to instructions.

I'm not yet sure how I'm going to hold the differential stationary while torquing the pinion nut, for instance. But as far as the backlash goes and how to remove/replace bearings and races, there's a wealth of info out there if you've got a Mustang and the differential housing is still in the car. I haven't yet done it, and I'm not a master mechanic by any means, but it does seem pretty straightforward.

A shopping list and things to consider that's specific to our cars, or at least cars with IRS.

Mustang 8.8" Axle Ring and Pinion Gears Install 1986-2014 video from CJ Pony Parts
Mustang Rear End Gear Installation: Ford Racing 8.8 Ring & Pinion
video from Late Model Restoration

accompanying article
Ring & Pinion Install Instructions from FRPP (.pdf)

The Trac-Lok clutch kit came with paper instructions, seems very hard to screw that up too, other than the infamous s-spring mentioned above. I haven't done it yet, waiting on getting the bearings off the carrier, which can either be pressed off or cut off like the LMR guy does. I don't have a press but I can cut things!

TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears

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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-11-2016, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Dear lord now I read in another thread that because I have a 2000 Mustang transmission I need a speedcal, not a speedo gear. I'd like to believe this is misinformation, but I don't. I'd also like to believe a chip reburn or a tuner would resolve it.

TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-12-2016, 05:42 PM
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Another note on the pinion flange: The rubber part of the pinion seal likes to wear a slight groove where it contacts the flange. This can often result in leaks that a new pinion seal won't resolve. There are "seal saver" sleeves that can be installed over the flange, but last i checked it was only a few dollars more to just buy a whole new flange altogether instead.

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-16-2016, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urambo Tauro View Post
Another note on the pinion flange: The rubber part of the pinion seal likes to wear a slight groove where it contacts the flange. This can often result in leaks that a new pinion seal won't resolve. There are "seal saver" sleeves that can be installed over the flange, but last i checked it was only a few dollars more to just buy a whole new flange altogether instead.
More good info for the thread, looks like they cost about $40 or you can buy the whole flange for about $50. Mine has a visible mark on it, but it doesn't seem to be grooved, I can't feel anything.

Sandblasted case and painted flange with new deflector. I didn't get any pics of the painted case yet.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_9755.JPG (3.71 MB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_9756.JPG (3.15 MB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_9789.JPG (1.24 MB, 4 views)

TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-09-2016, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Differential painted. Ford Blue, the aluminum cover was left bare. Lots of clear coat everywhere. Unsure how it'll hold up, also unsure anyone will ever see it!
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File Type: jpg IMG_9934.JPG (3.90 MB, 3 views)

TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears

Last edited by BlackCat94; 04-09-2016 at 05:13 PM.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-09-2016, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
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Carrier was officially rebuilt April 4th. That spring was a bitch. The method in the video didn't work out with the tools I had available to me where I was at. But it's done.
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TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-26-2016, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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It's all in, all done, including the break in procedure specified by FRPP. No noise, no chatter. The entire process rather surprised me by how straightforward and relatively simple it is once you understand what's going on.

I can see where it would get to be a big deal if you had to repeatedly go in to adjust the backlash by means of the pinion shim or something though. Apparently I owe a lot of my success to using FRPP parts as I've read that others can be a big hassle.

The speedometer is WAY off though, it already had a purple 21 tooth speedo gear in it I found when I went to change it.

TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 02:42 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat94 View Post
Dear lord now I read in another thread that because I have a 2000 Mustang transmission I need a speedcal, not a speedo gear.
Yup.

The 8 tooth tranny shaft gear in the later trannys causes problems like this.

I took apart an old 96 tranny to save this shaft due to the 7 tooth design. (and the direct clutch basket; they bend if you drop one on a concrete floor, lol.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat94 View Post
I'd like to believe this is misinformation, but I don't. I'd also like to believe a chip reburn or a tuner would resolve it.
Nope, and Nope, unfortunately. Later cars worked like this, but not our cars.

There is an N/V setting you might need to change in your tune; ask your tuner.

A speedcal is in your future; you can't fit tires big enough to fix it.

Max size tires on a 7 tooth tranny gives a 21.5; an 8 tooth gives 24.6, lol.

Check out this calc:

http://www.sccoa.com/faq/speedgr.html



There are actually parts we needed to save out of the older trannys besides the side lever, dammit.

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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 07:14 PM
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Starting my 4.10 swap next week lol yay me.. I may pm you for some questions
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-30-2016, 11:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Yup.
There are actually parts we needed to save out of the older trannys besides the side lever, dammit.
I'm sure my stock transmission is still around somewhere. Are you telling me I can nab a part out of it to fix my woes or am I still stuck buying a SpeedCal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sik97bird View Post
Starting my 4.10 swap next week lol yay me.. I may pm you for some questions
You're welcome to do that. I'm not an expert, but it wasn't the moon shot that some make it out to be. After I fully understood the science and reasoning for the rebuild/setup itself and completed it I was still petrified of the swap. Fortunately, that was simple as could be.

  • Remove wheels
  • Remove brake calipers, brackets, rotors
  • Remove the three bolts on each side that hold knuckles to upper and lower control arms
  • Simply pry halfshafts out of (away from) the differential housing.
  • Remove four bolts that hold the driveshaft to the pinion flange
  • Remove four bolts that hold differential in car
  • Reverse steps to reinstall

This was a complete cakewalk compared to replacing the steering rack, for instance.

TCCoA, there's no better way.
BlackCat94 - The Revolution.
1994 XR7 - Intake Tube, LMAF, March Underdrive Pulleys, J-Modded '00 Mustang Trans, Marauder T/C,
TruBendz 2.5" SS True Duals, Apten Flip Chip, FRPP 4.10s & Trac Lock, etc.

[email protected] with 3.27 gears
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